Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !



Author Topic: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !  (Read 903 times))

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« on: November 28, 2017, 02:57:54 PM »
I write this longish post because I've never been able to shoot decently with a Webley Rebel clone I bought almost 3 years ago from a German reseller, and I'm looking for some clue that could change that, from Webley rebel owners.

Still today, I couldn't group more than 2 to 3 shots from 33 yards. The first flaw I discovered when I bought this rifle was that the threaded part of the plastic piece which supports the pump pivot pin and the foresight was'nt aligned with the barrel axis. After a lot of tinkering and eventually changing the whole piece, this issue was solved.
But I explored many other tracks:

- I tried to add a very small piece of plastic at the end of the probe as I felt the pellets were not properly introduced in the detent chamber. No significant result, so I removed the gadget.
- Carefully polished the barrel crown  with the conical felt piece of a Dremel (one of the good advices from Longhunter). No harm, a shiny crown but nothing really better.
- Changed exhaust valve o'ring. Shot a bit harder, no accuracy improvement.
- Put a piece of self vulcanising tape around the outer barrell where it enters the plastic receiver so to reduce air leak (had achieved a talc test before). Succeeded, but didn't shoot better.
- Changed probe O'ring for same reasons. Same improvement, same result.
- Disassembled at least 3 times the "compressing cartridge" and fully cleaned it. Tricky but I succeeded. Need to be carefull when reassembling because its position directly influences the trigger operation.
- Tried to improve the trigger mechanism, noticeably the "sash window looking" piece. Polished it a little and the valve pin, too. Then the rifle would shoot by itself when pumping, without touching the trigger blade, the safety beeing on. Oops !! :o :o Made the spring under the "sash window looking piece" stronger and now all's OK, though the trigger weight slighly increased. Didn't improve accuracy.
- Changed the plastic rear sight for a metal one. A bit more pleasant to shoot, nothing else.
- Tried to install a 4x32 scope. Allowed me to discover the plastic dovetail axis was about 1 to 2 degrees to the left from the barrel axis! Hard to compensate even with a shim. Too much P.O.I. dispersion requesting constant adjustment=> back to open sights.
- Tried 11 kind of pellets, from 7.9gr to 10.5gr, of all shapes. Domed X-field 8.64 gr from Stoeger shoot best, but that best is poor.
- Tried many combinations of stroke numbers, pellets, etc. Non conclusive.
- Of course tried without LDC. Noisy and still unsteady.
- Now the barrel : I didn't dare pushing a pellet in it in order to find soft or hard spots, as I don't have any soft enough rod. But looking into it with a powerfull flashlight, I found it shiny and regular, and that doesn't mean a thing, I know...

I probably tried others tricks I just can't remember. So you may ask me why didn't I wrap that ^**^ on a tree ? 'Cause I don't want to damage my trees and I'm not strong enough to do that. 8)
More seriously, I can't help trying to make that gun shoot decently : it has an intriguing and very simple mechanism, it's well balanced, powerful enough, has a pleasant wood stock and is neighbor friendly.
But the heck if I can find why it doesn't want to group with more than 2 or three pellets  !?!

Any original ideas ?
  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 09:14:16 AM »
Hmm, beyond the fact it's a bit boring post, I think it requires some pics.
Done this morning.
First pic : carefully shot 5 pellets from the infamous Airstrike.
Second pic : quickly shot five from my brave Crosman 2100.
What else ?
  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline Back_Roads

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2731
  • ! !
  • Real Name: James Seiler
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 10:00:38 AM »
 I found my Plastic Rebel .177 prefers H&N Excite pellets , what brand / styles of pellet have you tried ?
  • Wisconsin Collins ;Hunters Paradise; Theres a Sign in town to prove it :)
We Got The Guns !

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 11:49:47 AM »
OK, let's try an inventory, with comments...

- Crosman Premier domed (or pointed): Not worse than  others. No measurable differences between different stroke numbers? Bad.
- Crosman Destroyer : flying everywhere past 15 yards and inconsistant below
- Crosman Hollow Point : same as Crosman Domed
- JSB Express : flying everywhere, etc.
- H&N sport Barracuda : quite poor though powerful at a distance (as far as, by chance, I would hit the target)
- Panther Domed pellets (a 9.2gr british brand) : became hazardous in this rifle, with a 5 inches dispersion at 33 yards.
- Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum : consistently inconsistant, if I dare say.
- Solognac "perforation" (same as H&N Silver Point, 11.57gr) : same as the previous ones
- Umarex Cobra (pointed 8.6gr) :allow some 3 to 4 pellets groups, then gently crawl away.
- Solognac pointed : same as Umarex Cobra
- Air Arms Diabolo Field (pricey ones) : inconsistant
- Gamo Red fire : low and inconsistant.
- RWS Club (7.0gr) with 4 or 5 strokes, nothing better: shotgun style
- Gamo Lethal (ultra light alloy plastic coated pellets) : same or worse
- Prometheus (ultra light alloy plastic coated pellets) : can't tell if I hit something with them.

I also tried gamo rounded lead pellets, just for fun (?), but they proved to be even more hazardous than the Panther Domes.

BTW, almost all these pellets provide a decent accuracy  in my Crosman 2100 and my Crosman 1377, except the Gamo red fire (too wide skirt). Same with the heavier ones in my Crosman Vantage NP, although this one does its best with the Stoeger X-Field, the H&N Sport Barracuda and the Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum .

So there's obviously a problem I can't solve with this rifle!!!

Yves
  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline Back_Roads

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2731
  • ! !
  • Real Name: James Seiler
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 12:10:55 PM »
 Yikes !
  • Wisconsin Collins ;Hunters Paradise; Theres a Sign in town to prove it :)
We Got The Guns !

Offline DanD

  • Did someone say mid-sized springers?
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1300
  • A solid maybe
  • Real Name: Dan
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 04:32:03 PM »
It may just have a bad barrel. You could try to fire lap it to see if it improves.
Good luck!
  • Binghamton, NY

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 05:33:53 PM »
Dan,

Had to browse Internet's specialized sites to understand what's fire lapping. Found that : http://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm.
But how should I proceed with such an air rifle ?  Though my poor pumper shoots really badly, I don't want its barrell to be even more damaged, if the problem lies there.

Yves
  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline gendoc

  • Lowest Bama AirgunHunter
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1223
  • bullfrogs with airguns since 2013, fine eat'n !!
  • Real Name: john
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 07:12:01 PM »
have you tried to touch-up the crown ?
  • swamp groceries rule !!
AF Texan-SS   431FPE
Evanix sniper .50.....207FPE
Sam Yang Recluse  203FPE   
sumatra .25 carbine  88FPE
Hatsan Bullboss .25....45FPE        
Prod by R1, with SS valve  38FPE  
Webley VMX .20         
BAM 21      
benji 312 & 342            
YH compressor with self
contained cooling system
ATN X-sight 4K pro
Bestsight CCD-NV

Offline GP2004

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
  • yes
  • Real Name: Gene
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 10:52:47 PM »
have you tried to touch-up the crown ?
+1
  • Griffith Indiana

Offline DanD

  • Did someone say mid-sized springers?
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1300
  • A solid maybe
  • Real Name: Dan
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 11:23:27 PM »
Dan,

Had to browse Internet's specialized sites to understand what's fire lapping. Found that : http://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm.
But how should I proceed with such an air rifle ?  Though my poor pumper shoots really badly, I don't want its barrell to be even more damaged, if the problem lies there.

Yves

Yves,  I'm  not an expert,  but I've tried fire-lapping a few times.  I used Remington 40x bore cleaner which has a non-embedding abrasive. Just shoot some pellets through that are coated with your choice of abrasive,  then clean the barrel thoroughly.  It seems to have made a minor improvement on a less than awesome Hatsan barrel I own.
I think it is worth the risk to try and carefully push a pellet through and feel for tight spots. Be aware that the first part of travel will always feel tight as the pellet conforms to the barrel.   You can then use an abrasive on a brush and/or patch to try and lap out any breech or mid-barrel tight spots.   I have lapped one barrel and improved accuracy, but then tried to improve it more and went too far, so proceed with caution.  The way I see it,  if the barrel is already terrible, and the gun is relatively inexpensive,  what do you have to lose?
All that said,  perhaps someone with a little more expertise than me will give better advice. 
Good luck!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 11:26:35 PM by DanD »
  • Binghamton, NY

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 06:00:33 AM »
Gendoc  & GP 2004 : as I said in the beginning of my long story, checking the crown and polishing it very cautiously was the second thing I did. The Q-tip test hadn't revealead any burr but I polished it a bit, just to be sure...

Dan, thanks again. I'm going to try all you suggest, step by step and I'll keep you informed of the results, bad or good.

Yves

  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline longhunter

  • what if we removed all the warning labels, and let nature take it's course?
  • GTA Moderator
  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4433
  • yes
  • Real Name: Scott Decker
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 01:43:10 PM »
Looks like your barrel is moving, from shot to shot. Check the breech and front sight / barrel band for movement.
Just for giggles, try placing a wedge between the barrel and pump tube, just behind the front sight.
It's either that,  or the scope is changing the point of impact due to being jarred by the pumping.
Just a couple of thoughts.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:46:00 PM by longhunter »
  • casco, wi. USA
.22 hatsan 95
 '87 Diana 48 .177
crosman model 1, first varrient
'66 bluestreak
post war crosman 101 ( 1949 )
Benjamin NP pistol
Beeman P17 
Crosman 140
Daisy 922
B2-2
Western Auto Revelation
Diana K98
Diana 35
Winchester 435
Crosman 1322 Medalist

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 03:36:41 PM »
Well, I spent quite a whole day trying to fix my blunderbuss (that the nickname I gave to this rifle). Hard time and almost no improvement.
To sum it up :

1. After disassembly, the first thing I did was pushing a pellet into the barrel. Chose a light and not too wide one (RWS club flat head). Didn't really feel hard or soft spots but... I just dare not show how filthy that pellet was, though I regularly clean that barrel  with a DIY boresnake. So I used my cleaning kit (rod, brushes, oil, etc...) and cleaned that barrel the most I could finishing with a Q-tip I pushed in. Looked clean. But meanwhile I had pushed other pellets in the barrel, softer ones, and discovered weird things (see point 3. hereafter)

2. Then I reiterated the cautious crown polishing process (see post above) with a bit more energy. Perfect to my eyes but a macro shot taken with my camera made me do it a bit more. To my opinion, now it looks really acceptable.

3. An Air Arms pellet I had pushed through the barrell with the cleaning rod exited with a big dent on its skirt, in a way the rod couldn't be the cause, nor any "hard spot" in the barrel itself. Using a powerful flashlight, I discovered what some Webley Rebel owners had mentionned : the inner diameter of the barrel is way smaller than the receiver's guide. So when the probe pushes the pellet, besides the fact it may cause it to go a bit sideways while it enters the barrel, it can easily be damaged by the barrel's mouth edge. So I tried, if not exactly to chamfer the barrel's mouth, at least make its edges smoother. I'm not going to tell you how I achieved that, I'm not proud of it except that I suppose I succeeded...more or less. I miss dedicated tools.

4. Then for the...th time, I reassembled that mess and shot a few pellets to a  "test target" from 10 yards with open sights. It really looked acceptable, grouping under an inch so I decided, once again, to try installing a scope (a low end but sturdy reliable chinese 4x32). No need to tell you how long it took to compensate the misalignment between the plastic dovetail axis and the barrel's one.

Conclusion : a desperately poor improvement (one inch dispersion at a 20 yards range) that makes me wonder if I'm not suffering severe mental illness.  Cause: excessive airguns tinkering and lack of airgun shooting practice. Significant  symptoms : confuses a slingshot with a Feinwerkbau rifle.



  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline Novagun

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • yes
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 04:54:01 PM »
I don't think there is anything that can be done to improve a Webley Rebel, except one.
I have had all the problems and nothing improved it. They are a pretty shoddy gun. I believe they have been discontinued.
The good thing about them is that the stock fits a Sharp Innova. I just happened to have one with a ratty stock.
Now I have a Sharp Innova that shoots very well with a tidy synthetic stock.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 04:55:49 PM by Novagun »
  • New Zealand

Offline DanD

  • Did someone say mid-sized springers?
  • Expert
  • *****
  • Posts: 1300
  • A solid maybe
  • Real Name: Dan
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 05:43:33 PM »
Sometimes 1" at  20 yards is as good as it gets for a budget rifle.
I too have often confused the slingshot and the Feinwerbau. It's really fun to buy inexpensive airguns and hope for the best, but it's a lot less frustrating to just save up for a Feinwerkbau.
Have fun!
  • Binghamton, NY

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 05:50:01 PM »
Looks like your barrel is moving, from shot to shot. Check the breech and front sight / barrel band for movement.
Just for giggles, try placing a wedge between the barrel and pump tube, just behind the front sight.
It's either that,  or the scope is changing the point of impact due to being jarred by the pumping.
Just a couple of thoughts.

Scott,

Your advice is as simple and legitimate as usual. But as you might have noticed, I already shimmed the outer barrel to the receiver with some self vulcanising tape, and it really can't move.  The other end of the outer barrel is even more tightened to that "forepiece" that receives the pump pivot pin, the foresight and a threaded end that can receive an LDC.

So should I reinforce the interlock of  the  inner and outer barrels, at least at their ends ? I'm not sure of that.

I'm afraid my troubles may lie in
- a likely bad barrel ;
- a real gap between the receiver's pellet guide and the barrels's mouth, regularly damaging the pellets' skirts ;
- a misconception of what I call, missing the appropriate technical words in english, the "detent chamber", where the air decompresses in an unsound way that propells the pellets in inconsistant way.

Wow! I went to the limits of my poor english!!!  Did you get me ?

Within a few days, I should receive a reliable metal rear sight I ordered at a local e-bay shop  that should adapt to my rifle's dovetail. I'll wait for it before trying the famous "wrap around a tree" method.

Kind regards,

Yves
  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 06:22:42 PM »
Novagun and DanD,

Thanks for these pleasant words. Don't worry about my mental illness : it's steady :o ??? ::) 8)

I've been tempted by the SPA (or Artemis) LR 700W, but I'm still waiting for someone saying he shot it with satisfaction -in terms of accuracy. BTW this helps me saving some money.

I'd rather be inclined to spend a few more bucks for a Benjamin 397, without fearing the overpainted bore end issue. But I'd personnaly consider necessary to add a LDC adapter (50) and a Williams peep sight (36$) or an Air Ventury Intermount (32$). Considering that the lowest price I found for a Crosman Benjamin 397 in Europe was 252$, and that I didn't consider the shipping costs, I'll think it twice...

Yves
  • South of France - Close to the Med

Offline Back_Roads

  • GTA Senior Contributor
  • ******
  • Posts: 2731
  • ! !
  • Real Name: James Seiler
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 06:45:36 PM »
 Had a thought , does the pellet probe push the pellet far enough past the tranfer port? Sometimes the air blast can dammage  a pellets skirt and send it wherever.
  • Wisconsin Collins ;Hunters Paradise; Theres a Sign in town to prove it :)
We Got The Guns !

Offline Novagun

  • Sharp Shooter
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • yes
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2017, 07:41:30 PM »
Ultramarine, I tried making a longer probe to seat the pellet further in. Didn't work.
When I pulled the gun to pieces the pea straw inner barrel was glued into the plastic body of the gun. It looked like hot glue but it could have been epoxy. Whatever it was did not adhere very well so there could have been movement at the breach end.
I, like you, tried and tried because I liked the look of the gun. and it was cheap, NZ$200. I see there are a couple still for sale here new but  I doubt they will sell.

PS. Nice day here so I am off sailing.
  • New Zealand

Offline Ultramarine

  • Marksman
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • I'd better be sailing
  • Real Name: Yves
Re: Help from Webley Rebel owners. CAUTION : long text !
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 06:34:42 AM »
Had a thought , does the pellet probe push the pellet far enough past the tranfer port? Sometimes the air blast can dammage  a pellets skirt and send it wherever.

Yes I did (see my first post). 't wasn't easy at all to keep a very tiny hollow  piece of plastic staying stuck to this tiny piece of metal. Was it efficient ? I just felt a bit more comfortable to push the pellet but I wonder  if this "foreign object" didn't disturb the air flow inside the decompression chamber. Anyway, no accuracy improvement noticed...
  • South of France - Close to the Med

GTA - The best place for discussion about Air Guns.