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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: JonnyReb on August 28, 2010, 12:37:49 AM
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I just received my "new to me" 909 .45 today, came from a fellow in N.Y. who used it to deer hunt(successfully) with. When i bought it i couldn't really tell the condition of the gun from the pics but i took a chance and came out all right.
The gun is an older model i'd say, a double tube, serial number 379. When it came out of the box, it was a good bit smaller and lighter than all pictures indicated to me. It balances nicely, without the scope at least and feels good in the hand. Even that tiny, odd looking forearm is actually in a good mid-point to balance the gun out nicely. The metalwork is really odd, casted pot metal receiver with distasteful engravings, chromed.. ??? definitely a copy of an old remington 1100 shotgun in shape. Strange but at least its not the model with the winchester lever action mixed into the design.. The wood is beautiful, the checkering good and the grain and finish all i could ever ask for. Unfortunately it doesnt fit the metal very well but all in all it's quite acceptable.
When i had the chance i connected the odd little probe to my tank and filled the gun. I had stopped at bass pro shop on the way home and grabbed a box of .45 round balls so i took it to the backyard and cocked it, loaded a ball and let fly. It was loud but not near as loud as a .22lr, easily shot without hearing protection. As there is no scope mounted yet i used the open sights which were way off. I never hit a thing so i wasted seeing what kind of damage a 121gr. roundball does until i shot a 4x4 post with my 4th shot. The ball went in about a half inch and then bounced out. Looked like it would hurt but i can't imagine shooting a deer with this thing. I'll end up doing some shots over the chrony and then try some different kinds of ammo till i find a good combination. Hopefully will make a good coyote gun. I'll get some pics and stats posted over the weekend. Anybody with any experience using these guns feel free to throw in any advice... :) Jeff
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Congrats Jeff. 121gr. ouch, sounds like fun! (envy)
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You should use the .457 Hornady 143gr balls instead of the .454 they shoot better
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Thanks for the replies, i'm going to try the .454 with a thin patch, i'll pick up some .457 balls as well. There is also a 150gr. "pellet" out there that i want to try. Look forward to figuring out the best combination for this gun.
I'm glad to know it's easy to strip down, judging by the screws on this one it has never been apart so it's in original shape. I do think i'll be looking to get it up to 250ftlbs so a tune will be in order. I'll get a photo or two later today for anyone not familiar with them, first i'm going to see if i have a scope that will work with it, mount it and do some shooting, :) J
edit: put an old(but good) Norinco 1.5x4.5 shotgun scope on her, worked out well because it has the short objective on the front. Put a couple shots downrange and the scope is just an inch or two off at 20 yards. This scope is unique in that the only two other guns it has been on... were sighted in without any adjustment. The scope was dead on as it was mounted. It just got the first adjustment it's ever had in 15 years.
Here is the gun..
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I filed down the 1st stage on the rear sight that alouds you to mount a lot more selection of scopes, A good slug on mine is the 170gr Pyramyd ammo, I got the hollowpoints and filled them with leather set in glue, the fly excepional
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I'm going to try those np, i did read that they were a bit to hard an alloy but if they work good for you then good enough for me. I just ordered 150 of the .454 epp 150gr. pellets. They are supposed to be one of the most accurate slugs you can get for this gun. I'll let you know. I just put 18 rounds through her on a fill and boy am i impressed with the accuracy of the gun. It stacked the first 3 roundballs at 20 yards, i didn't realize that the gun had 2 power levels... my fourth shot went low and only hit 458fps so i knew it had been mistakenly fired at low power. My shot string went about like this..
1st 699fps with 141gr. = 150ftlbs
2nd 698
3rd 697
4th 458 low power
5th 705
6th 696
it started a slow drop that ended at 511 fps and 80ft lbs at the 18th shot. Throughout every shot i could have easily headshot a rabbit at that range. This is an ultimate small/medium game tool and a comfortable gun to fill, load, shoot and carry. If it will just end up being reliable then i couldn't be any happier and would recommend it to anyone. J
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those numbers sound right, the 2 tube 909 has less power and more shots than the single tube 909s.
Those are real fine guns excepionally accurate, yes I've heard too that those EPPs are real good, and don't be afraid of taking shots at deer, this gun has taken lots of deer down and will do it for you too ;)
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Just seems so light for a deer sized critter. I know the magic you perform in dropping pigs with your .22.. but still.. 150 ftlbs is about the same as a .22 lr.. i could maybe see a headshot doing the trick but a body shot is iffy to me. I'm all about a quick clean kill and i'm going to have to get more comfortable with this gun before i could pop a deer with it. The previous owner took a 6 point buck.. guessing about 150lbs animal with a neck shot, then a finisher. He said the roundballs were both found on the opposite side of the animal, just under the skin. So i guess it's doable..
Either way this is a sweet gun and one i'll be happy to carry around.. can't wait till the epp's get here..
Did you ever have any luck finding a Brake? J
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Remember that a good slug with a flat head in .45 will produce a huge channel wound.
stay inside the 50 yards and get the round in the right place and a deer will have no chance, this is surgical elimination rather than brute force like firearms ;)
you can get the 909 tuned to near 300 FPE with still a good 4-5 full power shots
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you can get the 909 tuned to near 300 FPE with still a good 4-5 full power shots
Thats what i'm talkin bout :)
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On the low power it will valve lock on a 3000 psi fill . I fill mine to about 2000 psi and use it for target practice out to 50 yards with .457 R.B. With the .454 R,B you are probably not getting a good seal . Make your self a bullet seater to get your ammo pushed into the chamber as well . What are the epp bullets that you are talking about? Also I tested my 909 with several different bhn bullets . It grouped well with any thing under 7 bhn but lost all grouping at 10 bhn and above . Bullets I use .454 R.B. .457 Hi tech bullet seater .Marvin
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn55/melloroadman/IMG_5922A.jpg)
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Thats excellent advice Marvin, i'll make up a bullet seating tool asap. The 150 gr. "pellet" is the one praised so much by butcher, i see his threads everywhere on the 909, he found it to be an excellent slug. It comes from different loaders but here are the molds. @ www.biglube.com (http://www.biglube.com) if you google "150gr. EPP .45" you can find different sites selling the round. I think i paid $27.00 shipped for 150. I hope they work well.
Good to know also about the bhn, if i mold my own i'll have to buy a test kit. Thanks,, Jeff
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Do not forget that Chris changed the barrel on his 909 and can use a harder lead in it than the original 909 barrel . The hard cast lead in the stock barrel will some times key hole at 25 yards but at 50 yards the same bullet will not even group . Been down that road with both my 201s and 909 . I have casted the same bullet in the same mold but with different bhn rating and both of my Korean rifles will not tolerate anything harder than 7 bhn out to 50 plus yards . But my J.H. 32 hates soft lead but loves anything over 10 bhn . Different type barrels . J.H. has a deep grove B.P. 1 IN 16 twist barrel . The Korean rifles have a shallow grove 1 in 20 twist rate barrel .Not sure what Chris has but I know he has stated before that he has changed the barrel . Marvin
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Testers are nice . I have a source for range lead that I use so I need the tester for sure . I have a Cabine tree tester.But you can buy pure lead as well as alloys here.
http://www.rotometals.com/ (http://www.rotometals.com/)
I almost bought that big lub mold yesterday but I found another mold maker that is making me a mold . Here is his site . It is mold number 45150b Marvin
http://www.accuratemolds.com/ (http://www.accuratemolds.com/)
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The 45150 for accurate molds looks VERY interesting, i never found a bullet weight but it looks light? 130-150gr? Please get back to me on what you think of it once you get to put a few downrange. I'm going to hold off on ordering a mold until i see how the 150 epp's do, also i want to see how this bullet from accurate mold does, and Lee is making an interesting mold for the Ruger old army BP pistol, #90387, it's 220 grains, .456 and quite short with narrow driving bands. It's a bit heavy for my gun but with mods to up the power it may work well. The Lee molds are just $20.00 so not much lost if it didn't work out. Guess i'll have to get a rooundball mold to as this gun throws the .454 rb with incredible accuracy out to 40 yards, which is the longest distance i've tried to group them so far. I never would have thought any gun could throw a round ball so well.
As i am a plumber, i can get pure lead from our supply house fairly cheap. I figure i'll get a test kit eventually and mix wheel weights with the pure lead till i can get the hardness right. As a kid i casted quite a few roundballs with my Dad but have not done that in many years.. i look real forward to adding that "tag along" hobby to airgunning. Thanks for your replies Marvin, you have given me more good info and more to think about... Jeff
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The 45 stands for 45 caliber and the 150 stands for 150 grains . I have several Lee molds and most work well and as you said if they do not work out you have not lost much . You might want to read this as well . Marvin
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91672 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91672)
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This is how accurate the .457 roundball is at 50 yards ;D ;D
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Harvests/005-4.jpg)
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That "Hawiian squirrel" met his match... geez look at the size of that hole!! You are in airgun hunters paradise, a pic for any subject, custom made that morning. ;) paradise i say... :D
I'll try the .457 soon as i get back by the retailer. I'll be interested to see how it affects the velocity. I did try a .015 rb patch lubed with bore butter yesterday, on the .454 ball... you'll laugh but i got a huge POP, louder than normal and then a velocity of ... get this.,.. 97fps. Lucky i didn't blow a breech seal but it sure left the bore nice and shiny. Don't think i'll do that again. I am however going to get some plastic .45 muzzleloading sabots and plug them after filling with #8 shot. I'll have an air shotgun yet! I will try those .45 sabots with a 9mm bullet also.
Thats the first time i've seen your sam yang np, looks like they changed them some, the pressure gauge built in is sure nice, i'm guessing yours is fairly new? Anybody know when they started making them? I've looked but can find no reference.
I see where my 2 tube model is modded to a high of 250ftlbs while yours can surpass 300. Sure would be nice having that power for the deer woods here in the south.. wanna trade? ;D ;D j/k :D
I'm going to give a couple types of ammo a try, find the right one and carry the gun through deer season. Whether or not i choose to shoot a deer with it i don't know but i'm really hoping to catch a coyote or two unaware.. i think it's great for that purpose. My bro in law and i went kayaking from our creek to the main channel of the catawba river this morning and couldn't believe the number of coyote tracks and scat piles we saw on the sandbars. They went from none around to there being to many in the last 15 years here. Time to thin the packs. After deer season i'm sending it off for new seals and a power mod.. :) J
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Coyote hunting sounds real fun, wish I was there ;D
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mongooses dont stand a chance with you bro good shot
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I picked up the .457 rb's today and gave them a try, i got conflicting results as they registered similar accuracy and fps to the .454... i don't really know what to make of that, i expected to be able to figure out which bullet sizes the barrel prefers by the speed and accuracy results from using those two sizes.. 700fps with the first shot and dropping slowly from there. Very accurate.
Tried something else of interest too. I bought some .45 caliber plastic muzzleloading sabots that came with .40 cal, 155gr. XP hollowpoints. I was unsure of the exact diameter of the saboted projectile as my digital calipers have not arrived yet, but it was definitely a bit bigger than the rb's, i figured the plastic would compress quite a bit so i gave it a try. Registered 648fps on the chrony for 144ft/lbs on the first shot, dropping one fps over the next 3 shots.. Quite accurate too
Shows a HUGE promise for using cast (the copper jacketed won't expand at those low fps right?) pistol bullets in .40cal and thus raising the speed of the projectile. Another variation would be using 2 .395 round balls. I'm going to order some light .40 cal cast bullets and i'll let you know what happens. For those who arn't familiar with sabot's, heres what i used.
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That's great if your gun shoots both the .454 and .457, just remember that the .457 is 20gr heavyer so it's using the air better.
Did you notice if the .454 slides back after you brech it ? .....that could be a problem in the field, you want you round to be nice and stuck in the breach ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'll slug my barrel once my calipers arrive and find it's diameter. The .454 sticks nicely up into the breech, possibly these older guns are sized different.. or maybe they all vary. I also read somewhere that the sam yangs are choked on both ends, widest barrel diameter is in the middle. I look forward to trying out the 150gr. epp's most of all. They are .454 and are supposed to be well adapted for use with air.
I mistakenly said earlier that the ft/lbs these stock gun produced were similar to the .22 lr . After some looking around i realized that the .45 SY is more similar to the .380 auto pistol in terms of energy. I have no doubt that a .380 would take down a deer with a close perfect shot. Makes me feel better about hunting with this gun.
Also a question, If these guns really throw a roundball faster than anything else and are so accurate using them, and being that none of the current designs of slugs/bullets for use in these guns are going to expand anyways... might the best option for hunting just be roundballs? Jeff
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The roundballs are accurate and they definatly are hunting worthy, but ther's other slugs out there that are more accurate ;D and they tell you what a good barral those guns have.
....comparing FPE isn't everything, a smaller round .22 or .308 will not transfer energy like a big .457 will and than you gotta take in consideration channel wound, big thing in slower moving projectiles.
As for hollowpoints not opening up at those slow speeds, here is 3 Robert Vogel .457 hollowpoints shot at wet Phone books
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Harvests/001-26.jpg)
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Point taken ;D ;D
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Do not forget that Chris changed the barrel on his 909 and can use a harder lead in it than the original 909 barrel . The Korean rifles have a shallow grove 1 in 20 twist rate barrel .Not sure what Chris has but I know he has stated before that he has changed the barrel . Marvin
Naw man. My barrel is totally stock....the same one it was made with. GREAT barrels. Maybe you are you thinking of Tofazfou, and his Dragon Slayer with the .45 TOW barrel?
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I'd rather use a good large meplat boolit design, but roundball@880fps seems to work OK for coyote.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/FirstCoyote001.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/FirstCoyote010.jpg)
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Chris, that gun looks just mean :o :o , I like !!!!
Chris is right a good flat head slug is the go, all the hollowpoints I have I had to fill the cavity to make them accurate, they are spot on now but before not so good
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Nice shot on the "song dog"... feel like the *who's who* of Sam Yangs have joined us on the thread, thanks guys. J
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They are great airguns. Very simple design, good power potential, and accuracy that is tough to beat. Best part is that they are actually available for purchase today, and can be power-tuned and back in your hands in just a couple of weeks!
909S rifles are being tuned to 320-350+fpe!
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What does slotting the valve mean? I bored the ports, replaced the seals, lubed the spring, added a 1/4 in spacer weighing about 15 grns but I did not touch the valve. I have never touched a valve so I was just to scared to pull it out and tweak it.
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I have no idea about the valve slotting.. maybe someone will post an answer.
Received the EPP big lube 150gr. slugs today and thought i'd give them a try before dark. The results were very impressive, the most energy and accuracy i've seen out of the gun yet. I filled 3 times... my tank is getting low so i was starting at 2700psi. The initial velocity was 677fps for a high.. 660's and dropping fast after the first 4 shots. This has the gun putting out 152ft/lbs on the first shot.
The Epp slug is fairly small, rounded nose, a solid base and a single gas check are the only two points of contact with the barrel. They came lubed with something called "armadillo grease" This stuff is filling the groove between the two points of barrel contact. It may be worth scraping the stuff off and trying the lead without it?
All my shooting was done off a rest at 25yards. The first 3 or 4(not sure) shots went into the large center bullseye, making one large hole. I was shocked and awed. I refilled the gun and began shooting the smaller bullseyes, one shot per bull... made it to shot number 4 and the power fell off, screwing up my perfect target. You can see 4 through 8 are all at a lower POI.
Still, the gun shows perfect 4 shot behavior, 5 shots on a full fill of 3000psi as i noted earlier, using roundballs. All the shots done in the "white" of the target were done off a single fill using .457 roundballs. The first 4 shots once again, were almost perfect. I went to the right for all the lower pressure shots, using the first, top hole as a point of aim for all shots. It's easy to see that every consecutive shot falls lower and lower. I think the key to adapting to this, is to use the low power setting for every shot after the first 5. I am actually seeing higher velocities using the low power setting rather than the high, once i get passed the first 5 shots. They are closer in speed as well. Heres a couple target and bullet pics...
[i
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Thanks for the up date . Do not know about the lube . I have but lubed bullets in a pot with water and boiled off the lube . Then finish off by pouring boiling water over the bullets on a screen . Bought 150 pounds of new black powder bullets from a man for 20cents a pound . Had to get most the lube off before I melted them back down .Now I know why their barrels clog up so bad nasty stuff .IMO Marvin
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I'll agree with you about the lube. In a blackpowder gun, you are running a patched ball down the barrel and back out. Plus you swab the barrel every so often with a patch and jag. Guess that would keep the barrel pretty free of wax buildup but in our airguns, the wax is just going to pack itself into the threads and perhaps even slow the projectile down some. Guess i'll boil (good idea) some of that stuff off the bullets and see what kind of difference shows itself in accuracy and velocity.
Anyone convert a 909 over to foster fill fitting? Where did you find the conversion part? J
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Randy sales them. They are worth the money as well .
http://www.adventuresinairguns.com/ (http://www.adventuresinairguns.com/)
if he is out Leroy makes them and might have some .Marvin
http://www.bgmfairguns.com/index.html (http://www.bgmfairguns.com/index.html)
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Hey JohnnyReb.....do you happen to know what alloy/hardness those EPP/UG's are? Nice to see they shipped them to you in a tray. Make sure you let the caster know how you feel about his boolits!
Those EPP/UG's are my long-time favorites small game/target/plinking slug. No one had used any of the Big Lube designs in an airgun before I "discovered" them a few years ago, but those EPP/UG's look and perform like they were made especially for bigbore airguns. Couldn't ask for much more in an airgun-specific lightweight slug......a real gem.
I'm going to be trying some of the new 220grain Big Lube "ROA2's" here pretty soon.
Always order your slugs without lube (or boil it off). That goopy lube a lot of the black powder guys use on those Big Lube/EPP'UG'-type slugs is bad news for your airgun barrel. When I first shot the Big Lube boolits, they had some very soft lube in them. I didn't take long for accuracy to drop way off (like a dozen shots or so). When when the barrel was finally inspected, you could barely make out that there was any rifling at all there because there was so much lube in the barrel. Cost me big time on an out of state hunt.
Foster fitting is a must-have. I got mine from BGMF. I will order a foster fitting the very minute I buy any Korean airgun (if not beforehand).
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Lee is making an interesting mold for the Ruger old army BP pistol, #90387, it's 220 grains, .456 and quite short with narrow driving bands. It's a bit heavy for my gun but with mods to up the power it may work well.
That .456, 220 Grain Lee ROA design is another known good one to try in the 909. I hear the accuracy is great. When I had some of those Lee ROA boolits, I only had enough for chrony testing. My BGMF-tuned 909 got 285fpe out of them. I would want a flat nose for hunting larger/tougher critters, though.
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hey Chris, I'll be sending my 909s to Will within the next few weeks, .....in your opinion whats the best slug in the 220-250gr ?
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Thanks for the links to the foster fittings, one will be on order shortly.
I don't know the hardness of the epp's but i'm guessing it's on the outer limits of acceptable, will scratch but it's obviously harder than pure lead. Does seem to work well though. Yup those trays are nice, 150 "pellets" for $27.00 shipped. Seems like a good deal. I would never have known about these if i hadn't seen your posts about them in other forums, thanks butcher. I'll be ordering a lee .456 mold soon, dug through my scrap pipe pile(plumber) last night and puller out 30-40 lbs of pure lead used in the 1920-40's for piping, p-traps etc. Hopefully it will make some nice slugs, recycled(free!) too. Appreciate the definitive answer about the lube too, i'll boil that stuff off before i shoot the rest of them.. Great!! info on this thread, thanks guys!@! J
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Hi all,
I had a couple questions and wondered if anyone had the answer. One concerns adding a pressure gauge, just can't get used to not being able to mark the pressure, so i could detect a slow leak or mark a sweet spot.. has anyone ever seen a 3 bar add on pressure gauge?
Also, anyone know what the thread size at the end of the barrel is? Thanks, J
Heres who came by the trailcam last night... :)
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z252/xxjonnyrebxx/007-1.jpg)
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Do not know the thread size . But if your filler is on the tube next to the barrel a LDC and the foster fitting will not work together . Marvin
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Thanks for the links to the foster fittings, one will be on order shortly.
I don't know the hardness of the epp's but i'm guessing it's on the outer limits of acceptable, will scratch but it's obviously harder than pure lead. Does seem to work well though. Yup those trays are nice, 150 "pellets" for $27.00 shipped. Seems like a good deal. I would never have known about these if i hadn't seen your posts about them in other forums, thanks butcher. I'll be ordering a lee .456 mold soon, dug through my scrap pipe pile(plumber) last night and puller out 30-40 lbs of pure lead used in the 1920-40's for piping, p-traps etc. Hopefully it will make some nice slugs, recycled(free!) too. Appreciate the definitive answer about the lube too, i'll boil that stuff off before i shoot the rest of them.. Great!! info on this thread, thanks guys!@! J
A lot of those Cowboy Action guys like to use about 30/1 alloy, which is around 8-9BHN off the top of my head.
Order your slugs in bulk.....a whole lot of what you payed for that first 150 slugs was for shipping. I recently saw the EPP/UG's for $30 per 250 shipping included.
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hey Chris, I'll be sending my 909s to Will within the next few weeks, .....in your opinion whats the best slug in the 220-250gr ?
That 909S is going to be a real hammer now!
For targets/plinking, or hunting? As far as heavier stuff for targets/plinking, the Maxi Ball design seems to always work great, the #454424 HP is accurate in mine.....I hear a lot of good stuff about the Lee 220grain ROA boolit. Lots of good stuff out there, so I think it's up to your rifle to see which is the best. As far as 220-250grain designs are concerned, there is a lot out there I would like to try. Particularly the RCBS 230grain Cowboy boolit, as that one should drop from the mold at just the right size. For hunting, the "Big Lube" PRS 250 has worked well for me. I'm about to try out the new version of the PRS 250's little brother, the J/P 200.
The trick seems to be finding the right diameter, which is right at around .4555-.456 range. ,457 has worked well for me.