GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Wasi11 on March 07, 2012, 06:51:10 PM
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I'm currently in the market for a new airgun. For the most part I have decided on the hw97k in .20 cal. Here's the dilema, the .177 & .22 are $100 cheaper than the .20 cal! (airguns of arizona) I was leaning toward the .20 for the compromise of velocity and wind resistance. So is the .20 cal worth it?
*note: There is no hunting in my future and the primary use is paper punching/silouette at 50+ yards in the overly strong Florida wind.
Thanks.
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Like you said, the .20 is a compromise. Personally, I would either go with the .177 for the higher velocity/flatter trajectory or the .22 for the better wind resistance. I would rather have a caliber that excels at ONE of those than have a compromise that not worthy at both of them. YMMV
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Id go 22, larger selection of pellets and the heavier pellets will handle the wind better then a 20cal..
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Thanks for all the input. I have no experience with the higher powered guns. Right now i'm working with a daisy 953 which is certainly not a long range rifle.
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The .20 is a great caliber and from my experience pellets aren't hard to find. Pricing is similar to .22. If you want the .20 go for it. That makes your rifle a true individual. At the end of te day the decision is yours and you will figure it out and be happy with a 97 in any caliber
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Well, that's a question I should have looked into a little more before diving in. Below in quotes and italics is a quote from some guy named Robert Beeman. Not sure he's knowlegable on the topic, but he probably knows more than I ;)
Anyway, after reviewing this quote and the accompanying charts, I'm glad I have two Blue Streak 20 caliber guns for the hunting tasks that I have in mind. I bought a couple 177s for the kids and one for me, a custom Slavia 631 (springer) that I really like and has hunting velocity. But i also bought a couple very nice Cometas in 22, and am wondering if they were really the best choice for my purposes. I also traded for some QB78s, in 177 and 22. Both fully tuned, very accurate and a lot of fun. Either can hunt, at certain ranges. But my Blue Streaks require no CO2, hand pumps, compressors, don't have to worry about cold weather, etc. They're rediculously light and convenient to store/carry. One of mine has a Leeman peep and the other I will scope (can be a challenge, but the mounts are out there).
I'm not knocking any of the guns/calibers I bought, or anyone else's guns/calibers. But for my original purpose, if I had to grab one, the 20 would have been the way to go. The others just add to the arsenal and fun!
"Which is the best caliber? The answer is simple: there is no best caliber, but the matter will be argued forever. The typical choice is between .177 and .22 caliber. Frankly, decades of experience have led me to believe that there is little purpose for the .177 caliber, except for match guns, which are tradition bound to that bore size and where trajectory and wind effect have no significance, and air pistols. For airguns of any significant power, I would always select .22 caliber over .177, but I strongly believe that .20 (5mm) caliber is a much better choice than either one."
Here's the link: http://www.beemans.net/field%20use.htm (http://www.beemans.net/field%20use.htm)
Good luck and have fun!
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here's my take on the 20 the 20 is a great Cal but its expensive to shoot I've had several 20cal rifles over the yrs and if ammo cost hadn't of gone up as is has in the past yr I'd still be shooting the 20! but IMO that cal need to be shot from a rifle that's shoots that pellet over 800fps without straining the rifle's power plant in order to do so! the 26mm tubed guns R9/95's 97'77 gun's only shoot the 20 at around 720 to 740fps out of the box w/an 11.4gr pellet and that's ok for short range hunting, its better suited to the R1 HW80 tubed gun's of 30mm, and if all your mostly gonna do is paper punch and some small game hunting the .177cal is the best choice IMO because you can shoot a 10gr pellet in the .177cal and get the same or better performance than the .20cal without all the extra expense on ammo just my 2ct :P
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Ya know, 20 holds good trajectory, and can match 14.3 grains in energy...
but you are so limited in ammo selection....there is more .25 cal out there now than .20.
I had a great shooting hw 95 in .20......but had to let it go. just liked .22 better...but I definitely DO hunt.
953, good gun to 25 yds....
God bless,
Farmer
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Mike, OT but I gotta ask. The rocket, is that something you are involved with? Looks big and a great photo.
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Looking at the pellets, comparing JSB Exacts, we get the following.... The 10.3 gr. Exact Heavy in .177 cal, the 13.5 gr. Exact in .20 cal, and the 15.9 gr. Exact Jumbo in .22 cal all have nearly identical Sectional Densities.... Since their shapes are very similar, then we can expect that at the same velocity, their Ballistics Coefficient will also be very similar.... Their energy retention and ability to fight a crosswind would also be nearly identical.... It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that the "best" one to shoot would be the one that starts with the highest velocity.... According to the "Our Take" data at Straight Shooters, that honour goes to the .177 cal for the HW97....
When you consider the vast array of pellets available in .177 compared to .20 cal.... and the fact that the 97 can handle the 10 gr. Heavy class pellets OK.... and since you are interested in punching paper.... I'd go with the .177.... Pick up some 10.2 gr. Kodiaks/Baracudas, 10.3 gr. JSB Heavies, and 10.6 gr. Crosman Premier Heavies.... and use what is the most accurate....
Bob
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To answer your question QV, yes. Flying model rockets is something my famaliy and I do when we have the time. We go to a cow pasture that the owner lets our club use once a month. Attendance is usually pretty high between 60-100 "flyers" and another hundred spectators. My family usually sticks to the smaller stuff but we've seen 16' rockets go well over a mile. It's like most hobbies some people are there to build models while others are there strictly for performance. If you're interested youtube LDRS or model rocketry. That particular rocket is med-large sized and a v-2 replica most likely flying on a J or K class motor.
*edit: NOT my rocket way out of my personal price range.(need the money for airguns;)
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Bob, here is why I've been throwing my arms up in confusion. The math is very complex and i do not have the data to prove or justify anything but this has been my thinking. There are two crucial factors involving drift. One is time exposed to the wind, the other being effect or strength of wind. With the lighter .177 the time before exit and hit is less than the slower moving .20 or .22. BUT wind of the same speed would affect it more than the 2x heavier .22. So which variable has the biggest effect on the pellets.IDK that's why I'm asking you guys. I know from my experience two identically shaped rockets yet one being bigger the result is the same. Both get pushed around a lot.
This question of velocity and wind resistance almost makes me want to buy two and solve the question once and for all.
Ah the problems of theoretical ballistics. So many variables so little constants. (yes I like math)
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Dude ive been in the same delema for a while now. I punch ALOT of paper so most of my guns are 177. They are cheaper to shoot alot. The only thing that has stopped me on the 20 cal is the cost. A new gun in 20 cal is expensive because i am a power junky so that leaves pcp or an r-1 for me. I have thought of converting a 350 to 20 cal but its cheaper to get an r-7 new. If you have the funds i say knock it out and get a 20 cal. They are about the same cost to shoot as 22 but have flatter trajectory. In my eyes its the best of both worlds but the guns are fewer and more expensive. Im going crazy now trying not to hit order on a r-1 in 20 cal because i want a gas piston ar15 also. What a choice that is!
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I thought of a 22 disco for a while but I figged I would rather have the fit and finish and the TRIGGER, not to mention the accuracy. In the end I think I will get the .20 if it is of comparable cost to the .22. Got a few airsoft guns to sell first to help fund the purchase. The good news is I already have a Hawke Varmint SF 3-12x44 (nice scope BTW) waiting in the wings. As the market is right now the .22's are only $550 at AoA but as I said got a few things to do first.
Thanks everybody for all the information not pulling the trigger just yet so any additional info is welcome, I'll let you guys know how it goes with a review(time permitting)
Mike
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I see alot of the 97s that are setup to hunt in .20
Alot of the .177s for 12ft lbs or less for FT.....also a .177 can do the job hunting in a pinch,and finally, when punching holes, you want them as small as possible for scoring....your 953 is a puncher, and they dont come in .22. With some luck, you will also be able to shoot the same pellet. No ordering a bunch of stuff.....
Id go .177 97's are pretty consistant shooters... and also be warned.....good groups at 50 are smaller with .177.
BTW 50 yds is longer range for most spring guns, even if the have the power to get there.
Id bet the 953 will go shot for shot with it at 15yds...
God bless,
Farmer
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Wind drift is actually quite easy.... It isn't the TIME the pellet flies that is important, but the DIFFERENCE in the time between in a vacuum and in the real world.... The biggest factor in wind drift is the Ballistics Coefficient.... because that governs how fast the pellet slows down.... and therefore the DIFFERENCE in the flight time.... If the BCs are the same, then the higher velocity wins out.... Forget about pellet weight, caliber, all that other stuff.... Look first at the BC.... then at the velocity....
The BC is the product of the Sectional Density and a shape factor (and varies somewhat with velocity as well).... Wadcutters have a lousy shape, domes and points a bit better, and the true round nosed pellets have the best shape factor.... Sectional Density is the weight per unit of bore area.... This favours larger calibers.... However, in my data above, I purposely chose pellets in the three calibers which A. had virtually the same SD.... and B. had virtually the same shape.... and the JSB Exact series are about the best shape currently available.... Since the shapes are virtually the same, and the SDs are as well.... then the BCs will be very similar.... All that's left is the velocity....
If the gun couldn't shoot 10+ gr. pellets in .177 effectively you'd get a different answer.... If you were hunting I'd go with the .22 all the way....
Bob
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I'm currently in the market for a new airgun. For the most part I have decided on the hw97k in .20 cal. Here's the dilema, the .177 & .22 are $100 cheaper than the .20 cal! (airguns of arizona) I was leaning toward the .20 for the compromise of velocity and wind resistance. So is the .20 cal worth it?
*note: There is no hunting in my future and the primary use is paper punching/silouette at 50+ yards in the overly strong Florida wind.
Thanks.
How about a 20 cal HW77 525.00 and a much smaller $20 upcharge for the 20 basically the same rifle as the HW97 and with open sights is also available in a carbine length barrel which is still slightly longer than the HW97 model
Tell Jim Tom told you to check him out
http://www.precisionairgunsandsupplies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=hw77fulllengthwithironsites (http://www.precisionairgunsandsupplies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=hw77fulllengthwithironsites)
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I was looking at the 77's but as utilitarian as I am, I still like a "perty" rifle. Just prefer the look of the 97k. He's got some decent prices on the items I looked at.
Thanks for the info, Appreciate it.
Mike
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I have three .20's, two Blue Streaks and an RX. The RX is in .20 because I happened across it and this is what it is, not by specific choice. I do like it, though. A good point was raised about the old Streaks. Harry (Yrrah) over on the Yellow once posted some of his long range, hundred yard shooting with a couple of scoped Streaks. Nothing fancy in the way of optics. He has found JSB's to be about the best shooting in those and is pretty meticulous in weighing and sorting for roundness. Results were minute of angle. No, these were not highly modded guns, just plain old Blue Streaks. So, yes, the .20 can do it for long range work. Still, were I to have the one gun for distance shooting (and fifty yards or so isn't terribly long), I would opt for a .22. Maybe a good Diana 54. Optimum caliber for that power plant. .20's are fine and kind of quirky if you are into the renegade thing but you will be ordering pellets unless you find some of the Benjamins in the black tin. It is nice to be able to pop into a sports store and grab a tin of cheap Crosmans off the rack. As to BC, etc, I think it's a case of entirely too much math. This isn't varmint shooting out to 400 yards. For one thing, you can't consistently compare printed BC's since a pellet might have a great one on paper but shoot poorly out of your particular barrel. Whichever you get, try the JSB's. They see to be consistently accurate.
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Ordering pellets isn't an issue as I do it already. The nearest BPS is 1.5 hours away. Cheaper just to order them from PA with the free shipping and 25%off 4 tins.
Jsb RS outshoot R10's in my 953. Just good pellets.
50 yards is long range if you're trying to hit a silhouette chicken. (benched of course) :D
There's never such a thing as too much math 8)
I like to think of airguns as the minigolf of shooting. All the complexities of centerfire in your backyard.
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Bob,
Thanks for all the great info. If I may ask just one more question. If the jsb's are essentially the same rather than shooting the really heavy .177 would it not be easier to move up to .20 to get simmilar weighted pellets. Also the .20 would be shorter if of comparable weight. Therfore easier to stabalize with the slow twist rate? Also if weight wasn't a factor why shouldn't I shoot 7 grain projectiles to get even higher velocity? I uderstand the BC being a factor that makes sense. The round nose retain their velocity the best which is logical due to the decreased drag.
You have to understand my skepticism. If there was a resounding group answer I wouldn't have a doubt in my mind, but as of now I've heard one of each. I'd do some chairgun calculations but I don't have chrony numbers.
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"Worst of both worlds, best of both", kind of lIke saying the glass is half full or half empty. 5mm is a great caliber, and with the better made Airguns, the pellet selection or lack thereof is rather a trivial subject of discussion. It's an awesome hunting caliber, but I don't see why it wouldn't be a l superb long range target/ paper punching round. I own several .20's and love them as much as my other calibered Airguns. My RX1 shooting Benji cylindricals at a blazing velocity of 600 fps is every bit as accurate as you could ask for in a quality Airgun. Squirrel eye accurate too ;)
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I'm gonna give you something else to concider all of the good .20cal pellets come from over seas country's and if we have a economic melt down their will be no more pellets for your rifle! nobody here in the states makes a decent weight pellet for the power plant, yes Crosman makes a 14.3gr pellet in .20cal and IMO its way to heavy for these gun's :P
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That is a sad fact Mark and I agree about the Crosman pellets being way to heavy for a wire sprung piston Airgun. I should have mentionned they are better suited for ram powered piston guns. Let's hope the European market doesn't collapse!! Too bad we don't have more pellet variety in the domestic US market.
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Tom you know I and others have tried to push Crosman to produce more variety in their pellet line up for the .20cal just to fall on deaf ears! :-X Crosman could fill the gap but they chose not to! :P
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If you compare the same weight pellets in all three calibers then obviously the bigger bore pellets will be shorter, and have a lower SD.... Since the BC is proportional to the SD, then the BC will be less as well.... The larger caliber, because of the bigger base area (same pressure, more area = more force), will launch the pellet faster and with more energy, however.... The bigger pellets will start off faster but slow down quicker, and therefore suffer more from wind drift....
Twist rates are not an issue in airguns.... at least not with normal twist rates and commercially available pellets.... They have plenty of stability.... The only time you might have to worry about the twist rate is with long, cast bullets like they use in the big bores.... maybe.... Our diablo (waisted) pellets are also drag stabilzed, and I've read that the new "smooth-twist" barrel used by FX has a twist rate of 1 in 13 FEET (1 in 156").... which in theory IS too slow to work.... Like I said, twist is not an issue....
Shooting a 7 gr. pellet in .177 will, indeed, give you a higher velocity (in that gun, transonic >900 fps).... That will have two negative affects.... A. the BC will be dismal because the velocity is in the transonic region.... and B. the accuracy may suffer because of the buffetting that occurs in transonic flight.... That is why I chose the 10 gr.+ pellets in .177 for my comparison.... I would bet money that the best wind-bucking ability in a .177 HW97 will be with the heavier pellets, even though their initial velocity is less....
Normally, I would be recommending a .22 cal, as it is by far my favourite, especially for hunting.... If two pellets have the same energy, the heavier one will have more MOMENTUM (knock down power).... If you were comparing a less powerful gun, one that didn't handle the 10+ gr. pellets well in .177, then I would be looking at how it would perform with lighter pellets.... That becomes more of the classic argument of velocity and flat trajectory (with a .177) vs. hitting power and often times better performance in the wind (with a .22).... If you stepped up in power to a PCP, then IMO, the .22 is the only game in town (or even the .25 if the gun is powerful enough).... As the power increases, and you can't get accurate pellets (with a good BC) that are heavy enough to keep the velocity under about 950 fps.... then you have no chioce but to go up in caliber.... The benefit is that in general, the BC increases with caliber....
You are in a unique situation, looking at a gun that will handle heavy pellets in .177 well.... and you are NOT interesting in hunting.... That is why I made the recommendation I did....
Bob
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me too and I agree 100% :P
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Thanks bob for all the great info and recomendations. Sorry I was skeptical at first but it seems you and the members of GTA really know your stuff. Really neat about the smooth twist rate. I had no idea the twist rate was so slow!
Thank you to everybody that contributed to this discussion I'm really glad I found this fourm.
In terms of desicion i might just flip a coin seeing how each caliber has it's advant. and disadvant. Will definatly consider the .177 now.
Mike
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To me, the .20 is like a 16ga. the middle child. 12ga is cheap and strong. 20ga is cheap and light for beginners. 16ga isn't all that cheap, and honestly kicks worse than 12 gauges. I don't see a reason to own a .20 unless it has some sentimental value.
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I think everybody should stay away from .20 and sell all their .20 cal guns, that way I can get a couple good deals on guns and the retailers will never run out of ammo for me. Ive had 2 .20 cal HW97, an RX2 .20 and now I only have the R1 .20, I loved them all. I like .177 for paper only, not saying you cant hunt with it but I use my bigger caliber PCP's, and all I hunt is ground squirrels and rabbits mostly. But when I hit the mountains for tree squirrels and barns for pigeon I like my .20 R1.
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I think you just have to try it an see for yourself. I pretty much order all my pellets online as it is, because it's worth it to me if I can run through a full tin without flyers vs. one or two in ten shots. 18 grn JSB exacts and Beeman Kodiaks offer me that, plus better muzzle energy and way more retained energy over anything I can get off the shelf. I run nothing but Daisy pointed through my .22 B3- cheapest .22 pellet there is and it actually shoots them as good better than anything else I've tried in it- I still have to order them on-line though. Great cheap plinking pellets for a great cheap plinking gun. The only thing I don't get online is CPUM's for my .177 pumpers (would be cheaper on-line but it's convenient to get em at Dick's near home), and Crosman pointed from wally world for my .177 B3. The only thing that is holding me back from getting something in .20 at this point is the fact that guns that come in .20 are out of my price range for the time being. I'd love to have an R-1 in .20!!
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I would love to have an RX2 in .20 cal. Also I don't seem to have any problem finding .20 cal ammo. Then again I live near one of the best air gun stores around :)
My .20 cal HW30 sees it share of paper punching out back. I would not hesitate taking a nutter at distance under 20 yards with it. Over 20 yards would not be good, but thats more a short coming of the HW30, not the caliber choice.
Grumpy
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I would love to have an RX2 in .20 cal.
Where have you seen them? I thought this one was only available in .177, .22 & .25. I want one of these soooo bad, either in .20 or in .25
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Pyramid tells you how many options they have for pellets in each caliber:
177 - 168
20 - 19
22 - 90
25 - 38
I've never gone through 19 different pellets to find one a rifle likes, but the relative availability is still telling I think.
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Numbers are fun but, I think with springers, they don't always add up. While powder burners can be temperamental, springers can be downright worse. That's the reason I said that, no matter what BC a pellet has, it's up to the gun as to whether or not it shoots well. All stars may align except for that one. Personally, if you like the .20, go for it. With good pellets like the JSB, you should do fine. I think it's a lot more important to decide on which gun rather than .22 or .20. I'm sure that an RX in either will be comparable. Good luck and have fun!
About ordering since you are an hour and a half from a store, I'm already thinking about that when it's only a twenty-five/thirty minute drive. $4/gallon adds up!
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Sorry I was thinking the RX 1 in .20 cal
I would love to have an RX2 in .20 cal.
Where have you seen them? I thought this one was only available in .177, .22 & .25. I want one of these soooo bad, either in .20 or in .25
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I primarily hunt but target practicing in the back yard at 40 yds is fun too. The .20 is def. a louder calibre so if neighbors are an issue and paper punching is its sole purpose then .177 makes more sense.
In my experience all of the top manufacturers make .20 ammo and i have 6 different brands,weights, grains that my R1 loves, just depends on what i want to shoot. IMO it gives you the BEST of both worlds.
".20 caliber (5mm) is a perfect example of obtaining large ballistic gains in performance with small, optimal changes compared to .177 caliber. The 5mm trajectory remains nearly as flat, but its heavier weight lets it carry about 40% more energy for the same velocity. This is the best general purpose caliber." -Beeman Precision Airguns
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I am intrigued by a .20 caliber but with so many options on weights in .22 caliber I would opt for the .22 myself. But you have to buy what you want and for a specific purpose. I would listen to all the good advice and make a informed decision. Good luck and whatever you get, you must post pictures!!!!!!!
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I'm personally not a fan of .20
I prefer .22 or .25, although the .177 and .20 are good for nice straight zinging shots!