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Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: dalvipravin on October 26, 2020, 08:35:15 AM

Title: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: dalvipravin on October 26, 2020, 08:35:15 AM
Hi All ,

One of my friend who use to do target shooting with me  back in 90s is keen on starting the Pistol shooting again. Hes in US and want to check which Air pistol he can buy for 10 meter target shooting in .177 obviously ..

I am trying to check online but am getting confused Morini seems to be famous I guess but any specific model number ? electronic trigger etc ?

Any starting point will help .

Cheers ,
Pravin
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: whitefox545 on October 26, 2020, 02:18:52 PM
Hi! Dalvi,  Tell your friend that any of the high end target pistols are more than capable of shooting better than any of us mere mortals!!  Walther, Styer, FWB. Morini.Pardini and others are all top of the line with Hammerli Air Arms and several others right behind in quality and accuracy.  His best bet is to try several out at a local range and see what feels best to him and make a decision then.  The used Target pistol market is great to save some money and get a great deal if you look around a bit.  price will dictate what he can have but they will ALL out shoot most of us!!  Hope this helps!!  J.L.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: dalvipravin on October 26, 2020, 02:25:04 PM
Hey J.L.

Thanks for the input am not sure if he has any range or shop nearby but any online store or model to look for in your experience ?

Cheers
Pravin
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: chico on October 26, 2020, 09:06:16 PM
whitefox summed it up quite well.

the Morini 162Ei fit me best - my friends shoot Hammerli, Walther, Styer, FWB, and the new Morini 200Ei - they are all top-notch shooters

which one is better ???? i guess it depends on which one fits and feels best.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: whitefox545 on October 26, 2020, 09:29:00 PM
The CMP has some great deals on the lower line pistols and Champions Choice has most of the top of the line stuff.  My self I would keep an eye on the Target Talk forum fo a good deal on a used pistol.  They appear there every week it seems.  I bought a Morini with a mechanical trigger used in like new condition a few weeks back for $700.00  The deals are out there if you keep an eye out.  Good luck!!  J.L.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Earl on October 26, 2020, 10:01:53 PM
Buy a Beeman P17 and shoot it while you are deciding on what else to buy.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Struckat on October 26, 2020, 10:06:26 PM
Yes, Beeman P-17, I am having so much fun with mine.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Scott_Tx on October 26, 2020, 11:15:23 PM
another vote for beeman p17. a bit of sand paper tweaking and its even better.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: dalvipravin on October 27, 2020, 12:24:50 AM
Thank you all !! Beeman P 17 then
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: ac12 on October 27, 2020, 04:04:24 AM
I presume since you are asking, this question as written, he has adequate funds to purchase a tier 1 pistol.  IOW $2,000+ budget.

Electronic trigger is a good idea, and has many advantages over mechanical.
BUT, you are dependent on the electronic module working for a LONG time.  As they get to smaller components, that repair will be harder. 
If you are in a national program, someone else is paying the bills to repair/replace the gun.
If you are an individual, repair/replacement is on your wallet.
I can still shoot my mechanical 30 year old FWB-80, and my even older FWB-300.

As was said, the tier 1 guns (Styer, Walther, FWB, Morini, Pardini, etc.) will ALL shoot better than 99.99% of the shooters out there.
So, the difference becomes:
- Fit and feel.  How does a particular gun feel in your hand.  With the correct size grip.
- - Example1, if you have a small hand, it makes no sense to try a gun with a LARGE grip.  It won't feel right, simply due to the grip size.
- - Example2, My Walther CPM-1 feels much larger in my small hand than my Pardini K-58, and barely fits me.  And that is after carving out as much wood as I could.  I don't know if the current Walthers also have large grips.

- Local support for purchase and repair.

As Jeff said, start with a used tier 1 pistol, less cost and just as accurate.
AP shooters generally take very good care of their pistols.
My Walther CPM-1 is "obsolete," but will still shoot better than me.

Have him go over to Targettalk.org, and hand out there for a while.
That is where the 10m target shooters are.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: dalvipravin on October 27, 2020, 05:44:43 AM
I presume since you are asking, this question as written, he has adequate funds to purchase a tier 1 pistol.  IOW $2,000+ budget.

Electronic trigger is a good idea, and has many advantages over mechanical.
BUT, you are dependent on the electronic module working for a LONG time.  As they get to smaller components, that repair will be harder. 
If you are in a national program, someone else is paying the bills to repair/replace the gun.
If you are an individual, repair/replacement is on your wallet.
I can still shoot my mechanical 30 year old FWB-80, and my even older FWB-300.

As was said, the tier 1 guns (Styer, Walther, FWB, Morini, Pardini, etc.) will ALL shoot better than 99.99% of the shooters out there.
So, the difference becomes:
- Fit and feel.  How does a particular gun feel in your hand.  With the correct size grip.
- - Example1, if you have a small hand, it makes no sense to try a gun with a LARGE grip.  It won't feel right, simply due to the grip size.
- - Example2, My Walther CPM-1 feels much larger in my small hand than my Pardini K-58, and barely fits me.  And that is after carving out as much wood as I could.  I don't know if the current Walthers also have large grips.

- Local support for purchase and repair.

As Jeff said, start with a used tier 1 pistol, less cost and just as accurate.
AP shooters generally take very good care of their pistols.
My Walther CPM-1 is "obsolete," but will still shoot better than me.

Have him go over to Targettalk.org, and hand out there for a while.
That is where the 10m target shooters are.

Great !! Really useful information now to start with , thanks a lot

Cheers,
Pravin
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Dockey 454 on December 10, 2020, 11:09:15 PM
If you can find one, IZH 46M. Very accurate, and reasonably priced.
  Tom
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: F/V Icy Swan on December 18, 2020, 04:02:59 PM
Here you go.  The Izzy is back in modern form from Airventuri at PA

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-av-46m-match-air-pistol?m=5257 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-av-46m-match-air-pistol?m=5257)

Mike
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Ted Howe on January 31, 2021, 09:56:28 PM
I’ve been using my Pardini for 10 meter pistol and I also use my Air Arms Alpha Proj which is a very accurate shooting pistol.
I compete with our Club in the Orion National League Air pistol shooting and enjoying every match. We took third place last year and hopefully we can get to first!

Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: ac12 on February 01, 2021, 05:12:49 PM
I’ve been using my Pardini for 10 meter pistol and I also use my Air Arms Alpha Proj which is a very accurate shooting pistol.


Ted
How many shots do you get out of your Alpha Proj AP?
The spec that I saw before looked like it would require a refill to complete a match; sighters + 60 shot match + finale.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: AlanMcD on February 14, 2021, 02:35:57 PM
I'll offer up some data on the AA Alfa shot count. I bought one to dip my toe in the 10M water, and I have a long way to go to get to the point that I could compete with it.  I do like the gun, but I think it is in need of some tuning to get the best speed and shot count out of it.  I have attached my most recent shot string from it, and you can see that it easily gets 70 shots on the curve before the speed starts to rise.  So I would say that you are right in your assumption that one would want to top it off some at some point during a match.

As you can also see, this gun is only running about 455 fps, and that is about 10 fps faster than it was shooting when I received it - I was only able to increase the speed 10 fps with the hammer adjustment on the gun.  While it shoots fine, I would like it to put out a little more speed as I get a lot of torn targets at this speed, and I think a little more would help whit that.

I do think that it is more speed there to get, but I would need to adjust the regulator down a bit to do so - the speed increase as the pistol comes off regulation is a clear sign that the reg pressure is too high for the available hammer energy.  Unfortunately I can find no information at all on this, and I am reluctant to take it apart without knowing anything about the insides of it.  Getting the hammer energy more in line with the regulator pressure should help reduce the ES some too, although I don't worry much about the amount that is there.

Anyways, I hope that helps.  And if anyone knows anything about the air reservoir/regulator in these I would love to hear about it.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: ac12 on February 14, 2021, 05:48:28 PM
I'll offer up some data on the AA Alfa shot count. I bought one to dip my toe in the 10M water, and I have a long way to go to get to the point that I could compete with it.  I do like the gun, but I think it is in need of some tuning to get the best speed and shot count out of it.  I have attached my most recent shot string from it, and you can see that it easily gets 70 shots on the curve before the speed starts to rise.  So I would say that you are right in your assumption that one would want to top it off some at some point during a match.

As you can also see, this gun is only running about 455 fps, and that is about 10 fps faster than it was shooting when I received it - I was only able to increase the speed 10 fps with the hammer adjustment on the gun.  While it shoots fine, I would like it to put out a little more speed as I get a lot of torn targets at this speed, and I think a little more would help whit that.

I do think that it is more speed there to get, but I would need to adjust the regulator down a bit to do so - the speed increase as the pistol comes off regulation is a clear sign that the reg pressure is too high for the available hammer energy.  Unfortunately I can find no information at all on this, and I am reluctant to take it apart without knowing anything about the insides of it.  Getting the hammer energy more in line with the regulator pressure should help reduce the ES some too, although I don't worry much about the amount that is there.

Anyways, I hope that helps.  And if anyone knows anything about the air reservoir/regulator in these I would love to hear about it.


Alan
Adjust the velocity for max accuracy, NOT velocity.
Wadcutter pellets are not the most aerodynamic shapes, and do not do well at high velocities.
The trick is to find the velocity that will hold the tightest group, with that gun/pellet combo.
If you increase the velocity beyond this, the group size will go up, and your score will go down.

What kind of targets are you using?
Are you printing your own targets on copy paper?  If so that is one of your problems.  Unsupported copy paper does NOT punch clean holes. 
When I shoot copy paper targets, I always put it on a cardboard backer.  The backer functions like a cutting board, to let the pellet cut a cleaner hole.
Try 60+ pound card stock, if your printer can handle it.  It punches better than copy paper.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: AlanMcD on February 14, 2021, 06:45:34 PM
Thanks for the feedback.  As of now, I am assuming that the accuracy would not degrade with a little more speed, but if it did I would back it down.  And also as of now, the pistol is just short of infinitely more accurate than I am.  I am making some slow and steady progress (maybe "very slow" is more accurate).  While I am enjoying the journey, I joked with a friend that as far as my results on paper go, I have some bad days and then I have some horrible days . . . .  ;)

The targets that tear are the official competition B-40 10M air pistol ones - not ones I print myself.  The results get a bit better if I put some masking tape on the back, and really good if I tape one of the square Gamo or AirVenturi "cardboardish" targets to the back of the official targets, although that is a bit of pain to do on every target.  For most of my practice right now I am using the Gamo and AirVenturi targets, as those do produce very clean holes.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Duckster on February 14, 2021, 07:07:07 PM
Alan, I use spray glue very lightly on cardboard, then stick the target to it. Cereal boxes and cracker boxes work as well as heavy cardboard. Keeping the target flat against the cardboard is what's important.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: AlanMcD on February 14, 2021, 07:08:49 PM
Thanks, Charlie.  I will try that.  I bet that is easier than taping everything up by hand.
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: Duckster on February 14, 2021, 08:06:58 PM
Alan, how far are you from Toledo, Ohio  ?
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: AlanMcD on February 14, 2021, 09:20:39 PM
Northern suburbs of Detroit . . .
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: ac12 on February 15, 2021, 01:24:14 AM
Thanks for the feedback.  As of now, I am assuming that the accuracy would not degrade with a little more speed, but if it did I would back it down.  And also as of now, the pistol is just short of infinitely more accurate than I am.  I am making some slow and steady progress (maybe "very slow" is more accurate).  While I am enjoying the journey, I joked with a friend that as far as my results on paper go, I have some bad days and then I have some horrible days . . . .  ;)

The targets that tear are the official competition B-40 10M air pistol ones - not ones I print myself.  The results get a bit better if I put some masking tape on the back, and really good if I tape one of the square Gamo or AirVenturi "cardboardish" targets to the back of the official targets, although that is a bit of pain to do on every target.  For most of my practice right now I am using the Gamo and AirVenturi targets, as those do produce very clean holes.

Thanks again!

Patience.
The learning slope is long and shallow.  It takes a long time to improve.
My former AR coach told me that you have to practice 5x a week to improve.  3x just maintains your level.
And as you get better, the slope get shallower.  Each additional 10 points takes a LOT more work.

Trick:  My AR coach told me, as I was learning, to IGNORE the scores.  Just select a ring and score the target as 0/1.    Example,  when I first started, I used the 1-ring.  0 outside the 1 ring, +1 inside the 1 ring.  Then as I got better and could hold the 1-ring, I moved in a ring.  And kept repeating that until I think I got to the 7 or 8 ring.
What he was teaching me, was to shoot a group, a tighter and tighter group.  If you can hold a group, your scores will follow.  Because if you shoot a flyer out into the 1-ring, it will take an awful lot of 10s to get your score back up.

Keep record when you shoot; time of day, temp, weather, how you feel, score, how well or bad you shot, comments, etc.  Use that data to help you improve.
Example I found that even though I am NOT a morning person, I shot my best scores in the morning.

As for targets, for MANY years there have been complaints about targets printed by some of the US target companies.
The issue apparently is the paper that the target printers were/are using.  Long fiber paper.  Which I guess is cheaper, and what they use for center fire and rim fire powder burner targets.  Besides, you won't get a clean hole from a pointed rifle bullet anyway.

I would do as Charlie suggested, put the B40 target FLAT against the cardboard backer.
I use masking tape to hold my target to the backer.
As you shoot away the backer, there is no support for the target, so you have to move the target over a different part of the backer, or replace the backer.

Kruger targets are more expensive, but reportedly cut nice holes.
http://www.pilkguns.com/store/10m-Air-Pistol-Targets-Kruger-250-count-p84747405 (http://www.pilkguns.com/store/10m-Air-Pistol-Targets-Kruger-250-count-p84747405)
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: AlanMcD on February 15, 2021, 03:21:43 PM
AC12,

Thanks for all that - lots of great advise there, some of which I am following, but other bits I need to start doing.  So far I have just been working to keep all the shots in the black, and I only have successfully done it on one ten shot card.  I just need to keep reminding myself to expect the progress to be slow.

And I will certainly get some of the Kruger targets to see how those work for me.  But I guess if I am honest with myself, the tearing is a minor issue until my shooting improves enough to get to a small enough group that I start scoring the targets.  ;)
Title: Re: What is a good 10 meter Air Pistol for Target Shooting
Post by: ac12 on February 15, 2021, 08:39:28 PM
AC12,

Thanks for all that - lots of great advise there, some of which I am following, but other bits I need to start doing.  So far I have just been working to keep all the shots in the black, and I only have successfully done it on one ten shot card.  I just need to keep reminding myself to expect the progress to be slow.

And I will certainly get some of the Kruger targets to see how those work for me.  But I guess if I am honest with myself, the tearing is a minor issue until my shooting improves enough to get to a small enough group that I start scoring the targets.  ;)

Go out a ring or two, so that it is not so HARD.
You have to work at it, but if it is almost impossible, the brain gives up.

I don't know if your AP can dry fire, but that was one of the best exercises that I did.
Without the AP firing, I could concentrate on my trigger finger.

I first dry fired on a blank sheet of paper, so there was no target to distract me from concentrating on the trigger.
One purpose is to burn the process into muscle memory, so that you do not have to think about the trigger.

Then once I was comfortable with the trigger, I dry fired on a target, to work on holding the sight picture for 5 seconds.  In this second step, I would put the sight on target, start the trigger pull, then CONCENTRATE on holding the sight picture, till the hammer fell.  If I thought about the trigger for an instant, I knew that I lost concentration on holding the sight picture, and I aborted the shot.

Keep track of your 0/1 ring scores.  That helps to keep track as you improve. 
That is more important than actual scores. 
Example a shot in the 1 ring and in the 10 ring average to 5.5.   But you NEEDED to shoot a 10, to only partially make up for the 1.  If you can hold the 6 ring, you have a better score.  That is why my coach told me to score 0/1 on a selected ring, rather than 1-10.
When you can shoot say 90% and it seems easy, then go in a ring.