GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: dukja on January 14, 2022, 07:25:10 PM
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I just got this new from Amazon. As it is shown in the photo, the breech seems to be tilted to the left when I hold the stock straight. Is it possible to adjust this myself? Or it is quite out of tolerance in your opinion. Thanks for the help!!
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Could be your tube and its four 4-40 threads.
The top action can be easily removed without degassing, but do be careful and check the top and bottom transfer port seals when you put it back.
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Thanks for the help! I'd like to hear some more feedback if it is normal and acceptable since I may not be able to return it once I work on it.
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Thanks for the help! I'd like to hear some more feedback if it is normal and acceptable since I may not be able to return it once I work on it.
Are you sure that you are holding it straight? It looks it from the picture, but it can be hard to tell. It may just be the front sight mount shifted toward the right, slightly.
If it is indeed tilted, then there is probably something wrong. Maybe if both right side breech screws were loose and left side was tight? Otherwise it is an issue.
It is not normal.
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I am pretty sure that I hold it straight. Here is another photo with a red dot sitting on it.
I tried some 7, 7.9, and 8.3 gr pellets, and the 7.9gr is doing the best. Still within my limited testing distance in my garage (about 16 feet with rest), I got about 1/2" grouping, which is not impressive with this gun. So I am leaning toward to return it back to Amazon.
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Something sure looks like it's out of alignment. I know I would be curious enough to try to realign things.
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I would be interested in knowing if you could loosen the left side breech screws about 1/2 turn and then tighten the right side screws to take up the slack. It just might realign like that. Might be worth a try.
Ray
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Thanks for the idea. I tried to loosen the two screws at the left side and then tighten down the right two (looking from back to front), but they are already bottomed out and cannot be further tightened.
Considering the accuracy that is even worse than my 1377BR, it is going back. :(
Now the question is if I should just get a replacement or a totally different gun. I am looking for a solid low-maintenance 10m fun for paper target shooting. Thanks!!
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I wonder if the trigger frame could be aligned.
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They are usually very accurate with the oem LW barrel. Mine shoots JSBs very well. For group testing, I do put on the crosman skeleton stock and a small scope.
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Considering the accuracy that is even worse than my 1377BR, it is going back. :(
Good call I think.
With the alignment issues and accuracy comment, something is amiss.
My 1701P is EXTREMELY accurate. Typically they are and would be perfect for informal 10M target shooting.
Amazon return policy is pretty painless, but if they balk Crosman will take care of you I am sure.
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Considering the accuracy that is even worse than my 1377BR, it is going back. :(
Good call I think.
With the alignment issues and accuracy comment, something is amiss.
My 1701P is EXTREMELY accurate. Typically they are and would be perfect for informal 10M target shooting.
Amazon return policy is pretty painless, but if they balk Crosman will take care of you I am sure.
Yes, very precise gun.
I have one that has a PROD tube and a 1720T breech; a carbine, actually.
I use mine at 25 yards.
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Agree with Bill ...am open to the idea that the grip frame is angled to the air tube being a possibility.
Either way, as a new buy, sending it back for exchange would be a good option.
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Took the time to see how far I could make a grip frame lean but still have the screws enter their threaded holes. Pettey far...more than your picture shows. Trigger still worked as designed.
All it would take would be a burr/flashing on that molded grip frame and the screws would tighten down firmly but leave a leaning grip frame.
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Thanks a lot for all the help and comments. "Very accurate" is what I always hear about 1701p, and that is the very reason why I try to get one. Amazon has "no question ask" return policy for this gun and also lower price than Crosman direct. Hopefully the quality of that gun coming from Amazon and Crosman direct will be the same. Mine was arrived in two days, which makes me think the gun is already in Amazon warehouse. And I hope it is not a return of anything fishy. Maybe next time I'll directly order from Crosman.
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Thanks a lot for all the help and comments. "Very accurate" is what I always hear about 1701p, and that is the very reason why I try to get one. Amazon has "no question ask" return policy for this gun and also lower price than Crosman direct. Hopefully the quality of that gun coming from Amazon and Crosman direct will be the same. Mine was arrived in two days, which makes me think the gun is already in Amazon warehouse. And I hope it is not a return of anything fishy. Maybe next time I'll directly order from Crosman.
Croman now sells them for 20% more.
Last month, it was around $411.
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Yes, I saw that. That was why I ended up with Amazon. Maybe wait for the next round of discount. :(
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After spending more time with this 1701p, I was happily surprised that it shoots better and better. Now even with 7gr RWS Basic, I got very nice grouping with support. I honestly don't know why. Maybe the gun needs some barrel cleaning, which I did not do, and gets better after some pellets going through it? I also fine-tuned the trigger so that even my two-handed freehand get a lot better than my 1377 (due to its poorer trigger).
As for the tilted breech (or more likely the tilted trigger/grip frame), it seems that the two screws mounting the frame to the air cylinder are tapped off-angle so that the trigger/grip frame is tilted with a slight angle. It really does not hinder any shooting since our hand easily correct for it. But I am curious that you have seen such mis-alignment in air guns??
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I magnified your 2nd photo and can see the screw is not flush with trigger frame. The front screw is threaded into the air tube while the rear one pictured is threaded in the end cap. More likely they are cross threaded. Still reason for return/exchange.
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It would be interesting to see what was going on there. My money is on the frame misalignment rather than the breech.
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It would be interesting to see what was going on there. My money is on the frame misalignment rather than the breech.
Probably so. ;)
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I magnified your 2nd photo and can see the screw is not flush with trigger frame. The front screw is threaded into the air tube while the rear one pictured is threaded in the end cap. More likely they are cross threaded. Still reason for return/exchange.
The rear trigger frame screw appears to be a cap screw and not OEM ???
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Agreed... Very Odd unless it was a return that some previous owner jacked with.
The plot thickens
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Mine has a Socket Head Cap Screw, but might have been changed.
EVP calls out Item #26, Part # 1700-029, Description: Screw, 8-32 X .312, SHCS
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"Made me look"
Yep, standard Socket Head Cap Screw on mine... I coulda SWORE it was a "button head".
Never mind, I will shut up now... ::)
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"Made me look"
Yep, standard Socket Head Cap Screw... I coulda SWORE it was a "button head".
Never mind, I will shut up now... ::)
It is on the 22xx and 13xx series... at least it used to be.
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I contacted Crosman to see if I may get replacement directly from them, instead of getting another one (possible also a return) from Amazon. ::)
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I contacted Crosman to see if I may get replacement directly from them, instead of getting another one (possible also a return) from Amazon. ::)
Good call! Let us know how that works out for you.
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I got prompt reply from Crosman (nice) offering fixing it for me with a turn-around time of 3 weeks. :o
I replied back asking other alternative. They said that it is actually very easy to fix the tilt, just as the member here suggested, by just adjusting the 4 breech screws. I did that in last time but the right side of screws are already bottomed out and cannot be further tightened. Out of desperation, I gave it another try. But this time I was more bold to move the breech around a bit (thanks to my 2nd round of 1377 trigger mode over the weekend). That move shifted the breech laterally and now allows me to further tightened the right screws to partially fix the tilt. There was still some about 50% tilt left even with my best effort on the breech screws. So then I worked on the trigger/grip frame screws to nudge the frame a bit. With the combination of these adjustment, now the breech and grip is fully aligned. :D :D :D
Now I am very happy with this gun since it shoots well and takes RWS Basic pallets (my most used one) very well. I enjoy the shoot out between this 1701p and my steel-breech, trigger-modded 1377 a lot. The only complain is that 1701p is much louder and not good for late night shoot out. I have seen people use this TKO moderator (https://www.tkoairguns.com/product-page/crosman-benjamin-moderators (https://www.tkoairguns.com/product-page/crosman-benjamin-moderators)) for it. I have also seen some 3D printed one for 1377. I wonder has anyone tried the 3D-printed moderator for 1701p and would like to share your design?
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I got prompt reply from Crosman (nice) offering fixing it for me with a turn-around time of 3 weeks. :o
I replied back asking other alternative. They said that it is actually very easy to fix the tilt, just as the member here suggested, by just adjusting the 4 breech screws. I did that in last time but the right side of screws are already bottomed out and cannot be further tightened. Out of desperation, I gave it another try. But this time I was more bold to move the breech around a bit (thanks to my 2nd round of 1377 trigger mode over the weekend). That move shifted the breech laterally and now allows me to further tightened the right screws to partially fix the tilt. There was still some about 50% tilt left even with my best effort on the breech screws. So then I worked on the trigger/grip frame screws to nudge the frame a bit. With the combination of these adjustment, now the breech and grip is fully aligned. :D :D :D
Now I am very happy with this gun since it shoots well and takes RWS Basic pallets (my most used one) very well. I enjoy the shoot out between this 1701p and my steel-breech, trigger-modded 1377 a lot. The only complain is that 1701p is much louder and not good for late night shoot out. I have seen people use this TKO moderator (https://www.tkoairguns.com/product-page/crosman-benjamin-moderators (https://www.tkoairguns.com/product-page/crosman-benjamin-moderators)) for it. I have also seen some 3D printed one for 1377. I wonder has anyone tried the 3D-printed moderator for 1701p and would like to share your design?
You could install a shroud, the one that fits the 1720T/PROD, to minimize the bark.
I did it on mine, and I like it.
Mine has a PROD tube though and is a carbine.
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Can't say I have seen a 1701P with a TKO.
Also that gun is not listed in the "fits" on the link you posted.
Wonder if it is only because if the angular muzzle weight on the 1701...
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Good...didn’t really need to go back, just needed to hear it from Crosman.
Barrel was the same diameter as other Crosman 7/16th Crosman barrels. The front sight “brake” was just grub-screwed in place on mine.
Barrel is just about the length of the air tube, so an LDC would have to telescope onto the barrel a bit and fit over the tube. A ¾” outside diameter tube (.75”) LDC would fit and clear the air tube, leaving just enough room to get at least some fill hose QD’s enough room to attached to the fill nipple.
Won’t have a front sight, unless you put one on the LDC.
Made a shroud from ¾” OD tubing, home made baffles. If a ¾” shroud fits and allows getting to the fill nipple, wouldn’t matter if it were a ¾” LDC.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50771409388_45855c9647_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kmuKao)DSCN3067 (https://flic.kr/p/2kmuKao) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Considering the factory setting/speeds, really doesn’t need the noise suppression so much...does still have a fairly sharp “snap” bare barreled (everything sounds loud in an empty hallway).
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Thanks a lot for the detailed info. I cannot find any 3D print model for 1701p specifically, so I will try to come up a SolidWorks model by copying some baffle profile to give it a try.
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No where near that researched/industry….more of hands-on type. Had been kept as a pretty sedate match speed type pistol (shot count rather than more power).
Thought being….just how complicated does it take to quiet down the little bit of air ejected from a 5 foot pound pistol?
Shroud tube started off as a blown down wind chime...basically garbage picked.
Decided to try baffles tight to the barrel and to the inside of the tube….like a hard hand push-fit to both to try to get it to act as a single vibration tube ratter than a tube-within a tube.
(And to listen to some people who told me that wasn’t going to work for accuracy).
Like many shrouds, only the front 1/3 does much of the work...the big volume “back fill” area is likely worth about 10-12%. Most of the “quiet” from is the section that sticks out ahead of the muzzle.
Several skinny “cup type” bushings from the muzzle to the end cap….rear of the shroud pretty much just for volume.
Made a big bushing to set about 2/3 the way down the barrel….ground the sides to let some air pass into the rear. Thick..wanted firm support.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51829492268_b4207a24dd_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mXZGkE)aed76302-677a-4f17-a99d-a7cd9dd9b883 (https://flic.kr/p/2mXZGkE) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Same great accuracy...just a different look and quiet.
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Nice. I have not metal machining capability, so I can only try the 3D printed one for now. And I do like the extra capability to collection some dust in it. ;D
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That would drive me absolutely insane. Stuff like this are what my pcp nightmares are made of. Crooked parts and leaks. Return it and get a straight one.
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Dukja
I have a 1701p that is tuned slightly higher. I am wanting to put a shroud or moderator on it. The front sight doesn't matter as I am running a compact red dot on it already & love the set up. I will follow this thread to see what you come up with. I do not have a printer or lathe, so looking for a less expensive solution.
Willing to extend the length of the shroud 2.5 to 3 inches past the barrel, but not any longer. The shorter the better. I don't really know if that's enough to work or not, but any reduction in sound would help. Please keep posting any sources or ideas you get. Thanks.
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I simply follow some existing examples and the net to come up a preliminary design.
It is not hard, as long as the 3D printer is well-calibrated to produce true dimension. Unfortunately, I have not spending time on mine Ultimaker 3, so my model may not produce true dimension unless you can tell me what is the shrinkage ratio in your printer. (Sorry, just read that you do NOT have a printer)
The example I follow has modular design. It has an "adapter piece" similar to the existing shroud to hold on to barrel (about 20mm beyond the air tube), and then "baffle piece" that expand the air volume, which is about 20mm each piece. The number of baffle pieces are holding by a schedule-40 pvc pipe (or you can print your own cylinder). So a 4-baffle LDC will be about 20+4x20=100mm or about 4 inches beyond air tube. I'll keep you posted.
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Dukja
I have a 1701p that is tuned slightly higher. I am wanting to put a shroud or moderator on it. The front sight doesn't matter as I am running a compact red dot on it already & love the set up. I will follow this thread to see what you come up with. I do not have a printer or lathe, so looking for a less expensive solution.
Willing to extend the length of the shroud 2.5 to 3 inches past the barrel, but not any longer. The shorter the better. I don't really know if that's enough to work or not, but any reduction in sound would help. Please keep posting any sources or ideas you get. Thanks.
It looks like going with a 1720T shroud would extend the length about 3.25" past the fill cap.
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With the brake/sight base off, the barrel ends nearly at the start of the end cap….almost 1” shorter than the tube. So something like 2 1/8” extension past the end cap works out to about 3” of should after the muzzle.
Might want more length if adjusted up in power/ lower shot count...depends on the OAL you can live with.
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Thanks guys. Does the 1720 have an air stripper & would it fit the 1701p barrel?
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Thanks guys. Does the 1720 have an air stripper & would it fit the 1701p barrel?
It does.
Same barrel OD on both guns as well as the PROD’s.
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I must be going deaf... :P
Simply can not imagine the need for hushing a 1701P
Guess too many years of abusing my ears with Rock Music, Working on Fighter Jets, 12g shotties, CF PB's, and Industrial equipment... :(
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indoor hallway shooting....narrow with hard flat surfaces. Just me and the wife, so no one is unexpectedly popping out a closed door, but the "snap" is noticable.
Outdoors or in a wide basement, wouldn't need to hush it up.
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Pfffft.
SWMBO has no idea of me shooting indoors in the lower level.
I just put a sign in the entrance door so she knows not to enter before knocking.
If you know the story of "The princess and the Pea"... that is my wife.
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Nothing fancy or for the beauty contest, just a functional prototype, so no paint or cosmetic make-up (with screws showing).
Takes about 2 hours to print this 5-stage baffled LDC. Take a few test shots and I was so happily surprised how well it worked. The snappy shooting sound becomes a muffled poof, just like the one in the movie. ;D
Now I can enjoy shooting at late night without feel guilty of waking neighbors. A success!!
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During my next step tuning down the hammer energy and stroke, I realized that the gun I had may been tuned up quite a bit so that I felt it was quite loud. I do have a crony but have no time to set it up yet. So I simply watched the grouping of 3 shots to adjust the hammer. I was able to turn CCW hammer sprint tension screw 3 rounds and CW stroke screws 3 rounds to reduce quite a bit striker energy. Now the sound of pellet hitting paper targets (with soft sponge behind it) is even louder than the barrel sound with LDC. And after about 30~40 shots, the pressure is only down from 2.6kpsi to 2.5kpsi. I'd be interesting to see how low can I shoot with still good grouping.
Before I adjust hammer, I got very nice grouping between 2k to 1k psi, but >2kpsi the grouping is much wider. That was why initially when I got the gun I felt the accuracy was quite bad.
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During my next step tuning down the hammer energy and stroke, I realized that the gun I had may been tuned up quite a bit so that I felt it was quite loud. I do have a crony but have no time to set it up yet. So I simply watched the grouping of 3 shots to adjust the hammer. I was able to turn CCW hammer sprint tension screw 3 rounds and CW stroke screws 3 rounds to reduce quite a bit striker energy. Now the sound of pellet hitting paper targets (with soft sponge behind it) is even louder than the barrel sound with LDC. And after about 30~40 shots, the pressure is only down from 2.6kpsi to 2.5kpsi. I'd be interesting to see how low can I shoot with still good grouping.
Before I adjust hammer, I got very nice grouping between 2k to 1k psi, but >2kpsi the grouping is much wider. That was why initially when I got the gun I felt the accuracy was quite bad.
What color of transfer port is on your gun?
I use red on mine, the smallest.
I think the 1701P uses medium, the silver one.
Blue, like on the PROD , is the largest.
You can get them from Crosman for $5 ;D
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Ya know, I wondered if the color made a difference.... I put a red one in my 362... Betty Lou's has the stock silver.
I think the red one came from a stock Maximus. Not even sure if it would make a difference in a pumper as long as it was dumping all the air.
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Wow I learn something every day. Looks like I might want to try a blue tp, and someday grab a 1720 shroud for a future mod or build.
I have a tko on my 1701. It takes the snap out. I also have it turned up running
508 sd of 5 with 7.4 pointed crosman
433 sd 0 with 10.5 dome crosman