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Author Topic: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs  (Read 912 times))

Offline Spacebus

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Re: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2021, 08:25:26 AM »
I have shot plastic sabot rounds alot and using abs, pla, pom, nylon and polycarbonate. None of them fouled the barrel to any noticeable degree when using silicone lube.
All three calibers actually cleaned the bore with sabots after there was some lead fouling.
Shot with .357 using .223, .457 using .257 and the 20mm using .452 and .50 projectiles.
Too much fussing and talking about how bad lead is, I call it BS from the eco people. We have shot cast and handled over a metric ton of lead and none of us have any measurable exposure that is to any degree unhealthy.
Oh the birds eat it, and so on... lead sinks and is not so easily soluble to water as its too heavy, as for plastic well we have a plastic waste island floating in the ocean. How much does that kill fish and birds?

Speak up on not banning lead and stop thinking about what to do with our hobby.

Marko

Without taking this thread into the weeds with science and evidence, lets just say you are mistaken. I won't use plastic either due to the toxic effects. There are plenty of stories of guys casting ammo getting tons of lead poisoning, you just aren't looking. Today we understand the toxic properties of lead and problems arising from casting are less common, than they used to be. Millions of people suffered from the effects of TEL which has only been taken off public roads worldwide this year. Furthermore the NIH has determined that lead dust can and will be absorbed by skin in the presence of sweat and water. Just because you personally don't experience something doesn't mean it isn't a problem for other people.

This is the last I'm going to speak on the dangers of lead in this topic, but keep in mind this THREAD is about lead projectile alternatives. If you don't care about not using lead, then leave. Nobody is asking for your opinion about lead ammo, your opinion is well documented, and there really isn't anything else left for you to add.
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Re: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2021, 09:19:43 AM »
Miles,

While I participate in the sideline discussions in how to make projectiles from other metals, the bottom line is that lead is hard to beat, with tin as a reasonable non-toxic second.

Bismuth is another non-toxic substitute that perhaps could be considered.  I think bismuth is denser than tin, but has other shortcomings.  It is used for shotgun pellets to reduce lead contamination of duck and goose habitats. 

It looks like 10 lbs of .18" diameter bismuth shot pellets is expensive, at $200.  Turning that into slugs or pellets would probably double the cost:
https://www.rotometals.com/bismuth-shot-bb-18-4-60mm-alloy-for-reloading-shells-10-made-in-usa/


Here, bismuth pellets are fired from an airgun:





I get the impression that pure bismuth is brittle. 
Perhaps a tin bismuth alloy could be considered:

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Offline Spacebus

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Re: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2021, 09:58:43 AM »
Miles,

While I participate in the sideline discussions in how to make projectiles from other metals, the bottom line is that lead is hard to beat, with tin as a reasonable non-toxic second.

Bismuth is another non-toxic substitute that perhaps could be considered.  I think bismuth is denser than tin, but has other shortcomings.  It is used for shotgun pellets to reduce lead contamination of duck and goose habitats. 

It looks like 10 lbs of .18" diameter bismuth shot pellets is expensive, at $200.  Turning that into slugs or pellets would probably double the cost:
https://www.rotometals.com/bismuth-shot-bb-18-4-60mm-alloy-for-reloading-shells-10-made-in-usa/


Here, bismuth pellets are fired from an airgun:





I get the impression that pure bismuth is brittle. 
Perhaps a tin bismuth alloy could be considered:



When I get casting tools I would be willing to try.
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Offline ballisticboy

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Re: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2021, 11:50:15 AM »
Miles,

While I participate in the sideline discussions in how to make projectiles from other metals, the bottom line is that lead is hard to beat, with tin as a reasonable non-toxic second.


I am not advocating any alternative to lead. All I am doing is pointing out the problems from the ballistic viewpoint. There are problems with all the alternatives, that is why we use lead. But there are very real possibilities that lead will not be available in the future, so it only makes sense that the alternatives are examined and the problems considered.
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Offline BigBird

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Re: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2021, 09:53:56 PM »
I believe the issue airgunners may have with both lead and plastics are both rooted in their association with firearms.  Hot gasses (fire) and primers (lead inhalation?).
I had a dedicated slug shotgun that had been shot so much with (wad) plastic slugs the barrel wouldn't come clean.  That was a plastic issue due to either fire, speed or pressure of a PB.  It was shot a lot before I got it.
If you read up on lead bullets used in firearms there is a limit to how fast you can push them before you get leading.
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Re: Comparing the Precision of Tin and Lead Slugs
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2021, 10:34:59 PM »
If you read up on lead bullets used in firearms there is a limit to how fast you can push them before you get leading.

You will get arguments about what that velocity limit is, but it is well over the speed of sound; when grease lubed bullets are used.   Lead bullets are less common for rifle calibers because of this velocity limit.  What will lead a handgun barrel badly is shooting undersized bullets, because that allows a lot of hot gas to blow by the bullet.  Thus melting the bearing surface of the bullet and plating the bore with lead.

Airgun slugs are usually sized no larger than groove diameter, to reduce friction.  In .177 and .22 calibers, slugs used are often 0.001" smaller than groove diameter.  There is no risk of hot gas blowby melting the lead surface due to less than a perfect air seal. Pellet skirts start larger than groove diameter, but the force required to make them conform to the barrel is low, and subsequent skirt friction down the barrel is not significant.

With firearms, grease lubed bullets that contain tin and antimony to harden them, foul less than pure lead ones.  With airguns, pure lead projectiles lead foul less than ones containing significant percentages of antimony.  So, there is some commonality, but the leading problem and mechanism are not identical for airguns.

Once you have significant lead, plastic or copper fouling plated to the bore, it tends to increase friction with subsequent rounds.  That heats up and tears of more material, so the condition can run away.  This tends to open groups and raise pressures (in firearms). 

The regime is preferred where each projectile scrubs out the little fouling the previous projectile laid down.  This allows many shots without cleaning becoming imperative.  There are many factors in establishing such a stable system, with bore finish being one of them.  Using the "right lube" can also prevent fouling from adhering strongly to the barrel.  Exposed bullet lube has to be managed, to prevent it from picking up and carrying abrasive down the barrel...

When it comes to plastic fouling of shotgun barrels, I wonder what cleaning regimen is used on those $2000 Browning Citori  shotguns they rent out at skeet ranges?   Or, are they smart enough to use ammo that has shot cups made from non or less fouling materials?
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