Air Rifle Accuracy (this is interesting)

[detox]

I found this interesting post in another forum. I do not know this person, but it sounds like he knows what he is talking about:

"Sorry to say But With a few well known exceptions who actually post thier groups and I can beleive the distances I do not beleive more then half of what I read regarding accuracy from most posters here. I Have gone the route of expensive to ultra expensive custom built FT rigs. I have found most are capable of "AVERAGE" 3/4 to 1" groups at 55 yds. MAny will throw one out every 3 groups. THe word being "AVERAGE". It's easy for someone to come on here and post a pic of a 1/2" group their rifle produced with them behind the trigger . It is another thing to shoot 100 consecutive rounds in a 1/2" and have everyone appear within the 1/2" "NOW THAT"S THE ACCURACY I WANT" in "NO WIND" conditions. That is very very very very difficult to find and when you find that rifle and ammo combo do not let it go. I was speaking with Johnny Ingram at the NAts and telling him how Impressed I was with Harold Rushton's performance and he said " ME TOO, there you have the perfect example of the perfect shooter who has found his rifle and setup. Isn't he incredable?".
Many of my shooting buddies have $4300+ rigs who can not execute the 100 shot 1/2" test. It is not that they are good enough shots because they can do it with a friends rig and not their own!

I could be wrong but these "ALL THE TIME 1/2" RIGS ARE RARE" and I know I will get bashed for this but I would love to have all the posters on the yellow who have claimed incredible rigs lined up at a shooting range on a calm day, hand them 100 pellets weighed and sorted of their choice and have them shoot 1/2" ctc targets at 55yds. If each one put $1000 up for the bet I would feel safe saying I would leave that range with a lot more $ then what I came with and a bunch of excuses.
Every shooter I know who has one of these rigs does not part with it. DOn't get me wrong I am not saying there is not an inexpensive rig that can achieve this but I feel that is rare and limited to the top 10 percentile. I know of a couple exceptions but they are custom guns on inexpensive platforms and not the out of box guns you can purchase.
I write this because so many shooters are frustrated over their rifles accuracy and when they read the yellow they beleive almost every one out there with rifles from $500 to $5000 can do this. SO this is written to tell you I found it is not easy to find that 1/2" consistant rifle and I was frustrated like most until I found it and the BS that is written here addded to that frustration! AIr rifles are not powder burners and from my expierence it's alot easier to find consistency in powder burners then in air rifles. I have spoken with one of the top 3 gun smiths in the country and he told me he went thru 5 barrels on a brand new $5000 rig to get the rifle to shoot 1/2" goups and it is still squirrly in the wind. What does that tell you about what leaves the factories?
I would love to know who agrees and disagrees with this logic or is it I was unlucky with rifles for a long time?"

[wrecktangle]

I've always been extremely cynical of all the boasts on the AG forums where shooters are getting incredible groups from their guns. When I read the "I put 10 shots on a dime at 75 yards", I just roll my eyes.

There are just too many variables and vagaries in AG shooting to get that kind of accuracy. Maybe.... just maybe... with an $8,000 Olympic grade gun, shot by a dedicated Olympic shooter, those results may be attainable. But I sincerely doubt that we have those kinds of folks regularly posting on this forum, or the Yellow or any of the other forums. And rarely do I see mention on here of Steyrs, Anschutzs or other exotic guns.

Just like reading the personal reviews of some guns. When you question the reviewer as to why he berated the gun, you find out that he doesn't even own that particular AG, but was writing about the experiences he heard from a friend who knows a guy who's cousin has one.

Just my humble 2 cents worth of opinion.

87.5 per cent of all statistics found on the internet are made up.

[Norm_m]

I can get dime size 5 shot groups everyday of the week. Just don't count the ones that fly outside of the dime circle till you get 5 that would be covered by the dime!!! LOL How else do you think these people are getting those fantastic results?

[rkr]

A good gun and a good shooter can achieve sub MOA groups with 60 shot strings (ie. 600 points). My best is 952 for 100 shots so I can't do that.

[Nathan]

I agree. I think most all of us had read at least one claim that we questioned. Alot of the claims should be considered "suspect" They could happen once, as a fluke I guess, and I could win the Powerball drawing tonight too. But by the same token, just because I can't reach a level of accuracy with my rifle, doesn't mean someone else with the same make/model won't either.

Nathan

[jonnnyboy]

When I was a little boy (many many years ago) I was told if it was printed, it had to be true.  Of course, that meant newspapers as well!  Now we know to question that philosophy.  Today, we are relearning to question the verity of electronic communication as well.  There are a lot of claims made by lots of individuals both commercially and personally through electronic means and again, I am learning to not take everything at face value.  When it comes to rifle accuracy and target claims, my question usually doesn't revolve around whether someone is telling me the truth.  Instead, I ask myself the question, "Self, do you think you could do that?"  Usually the answer is, "No!" 

I love to hear the claims and I love to see the pictures of the targets but for me, it all comes down to whether I could duplicate it myself and to whether I would enjoy doing so.  I agree with Detox in his estimation of the original poster; it IS interesting.  The only time I really get frustrated is when I know I can do better and for some reason, can't.  I try not to share the blame of that on anyone but myself.

With that said, come on guys keep telling me how good your guns shoot!  It helps me want another gun!

joe

[Markez]

I could never do it even if I had the perfect gun & pellet combo. The human part of getting
old. I just like to hit that tree rat in the back yard.

Mark

[bowhunt]

I hear what you are saying and agree with it for the most part. What intrigues me the most is...by what standards or organization was this gunsmith, you made reference to, rated in the "top 3 in the country"?

[Ribbonstone]

Agree.


Post a lot of groups here and on other forums, always 5-shot groups, but mostly from testing at just 20 yards.  That's far enough to sort out the hopeless choices from the hopeful. 

Personal opinion is that rifles than can consistently stay in the 7's at 50yards are pretty darn rare. Shooters that can shoot that well are equally rare.

What I think happens is pretty much what you describe... occasionally, every gun will toss a super tiny group (I once tossed a peanut into a shot glass from 20 yards and didn't have to buy a drink for the rest of the night). All you have to do is :

1. Shoot 3-shot groups and wait for random chance to place 3 of them in a tiny group.
2. Ignore all the other groups (or give excuses) and only remember that one fluke-group.

[Ribbonstone]

I normally look at statistics with about the same amount of friendliness as  finding a rattle snake in my boot.

this is lifted from cast bullet (firearm) shooters...but the statistics are valid as far as I've researched:

http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/GroupSizesandStatsbyJB.htm


Now the “meat” of this is simply that it takes a whole lot of shooting to be 90% sure of what the average groups are likely to be.  Checking out the charts, to be 90% certain you are within 10% of true accuracy, would need to shoot and average 28 5-shot groups.  To be 95% sure, would need to shoot 38 5-shot groups.

10% is pretty fine.  If you could live with being sure within 20% of true average, would only need  5 5-shot groups.  Think most of us would be pleased to stop at this point.

Point being, I’ve fired many ½ 50yard groups…and  many just over….and quite a few  where one got away from me.  It’s the average that counts. 

Some of it is biologic, but that counts just as much…after all, you bought the rifle for your use, so the shooter’s decision to pull the trigger counts.

[shadowr1]

I really don't know what the big deal is, at 55 yards I only open up the first pellet hole.

Just joking, I've had my disco for 2 weeks and am not doing dimes @ 30 yards-------Yet.

[Gary]

An old friend and boss of mine had a saying" Don't belive any of what you read or hear, and only half of what you see"
I don't go quite that far but seems to be about right.
Gary

[Wingman]

Shooting takes practice just like everything else and when you add the wild game factor in it's a whole new ball game. Punching paper and shooting at game are two different animals... no pun intended....

[AirScopes]

I've had my occasional brilliant 5-shot group. It is when I go to 25 and 50 shot groups that you start to get more of a good statistical analysis. I like the challenge of shooting off-hand, and even at 10 yards I will vary from a one-hole 5-shot group to a group there none of the pellets touch. Part of it is concentration and consistent approach, part of it the rifle, part the pellet, part my heart beat... Sometimes I have the opportunity to target shoot on the shore of lake Erie... I set up 3x3 flat stones on sticks and shoot into the prevailing wind and gusts at 75 yards. Even when the breeze is somewhat mild, I see far more splashes behind the targets as the pellets strike the water than stones breaking...But it is a great way to shoot-and-see, and hone in fine adjustments to try and make things better.

I think there is nothing wrong with boasting about a nice 5-shot group -- for me it makes me just want to do it again and get better with my 10-shot groups. But like the original post says, I doubt there is a man or rifle that will do the same all day long. Certainly it is something to strive for, and it is likely why the challenge is always there.

Nice appropriation of that post! A great talking point. I wonder if anyone will argue the other side...

[greyskullnz]

Here's a perspective that the original "quoted post" misses entirely in it critique of people's posting of group sizes.

There are good competition shooters about, who read and chuckle to themselves quietly in a corner when they read the forums. Not by coincidence those shooters do not concentrate on "groups" unless they are dedicated Benchrest competition shooters.

Groups denote Accuracy, whereas a shooter will be looking for Precision, namely can I put it where I want to put it every time?

Five shots in a small group on a windless day mean very little, except the rifle is sighted in properly. That is what I take from such a result on the range. I then move past that very quickly to try and discover what the wind is doing........and how much of an effect I will see on pellets at different ranges.

I deliberately try not to hold on one single aimpoint, and try to drift the pellet into my desired target area. So a group is of no consequence to me, and many others who only consider a "group" as a starting point.

On the subject of whether particular air rifles are capable of tight groups, or as the original poster asserts, it is all baloney..........well I know there are combinations of barrel and pellet and shooter that seem to have all the planets aligned at times, so I don't take his viewpoint that seriously.


All things mechanical need to be treated with intelligence, and knowledge and wisdom is required to get the absolute best out of them. I would suggest that the original "QUOTED" poster has an issue with being unaware of some aspects of discovering true accuracy and precision, hence the rant I can only attribute to being an unbeliever that others have found their "happy place".

There will be no coincidence that a shooter like Harold Rushton achieves so highly,.......some little part will be due to completely sorted equipment, and a larger part will be due to attitude. I cannot recall him ever berating any other's achievements publicy, no matter how small or large.  It is seldom the equipment that holds a person back, it is more often a negative attitude. Champs do not have to belittle others publicly to make their achievement look good, it just is.......

One of the key traits of a great shooter is that they will ignore the negative performances and remember only the good ones. Positive reinforcement. So what is wrong with only posting your best groups? Absolutely nothing if you want to have the mindset of a champion shooter..............

GS