GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => The Long Range Club => Topic started by: Captain Paul on July 03, 2021, 06:15:48 PM
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What do you guys do about the massive holdover required when shooting smaller calibers, like .22 or .177? If I shim the scope or use a base that allows me to angle it, then the rifle becomes worthless for anything closer than 100 yds (I also shoot 50 yds). If I sight the scope at 50 yds then I have to zoom out to 9x or less to be able to use my Mil Dots for sighting. Worse yet, the crosshairs on my SFP scope completely cover the bull's eye. Or do you guys all have rifles set up for 100 yds and don't use it for anything else?
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What do you guys do about the massive holdover required when shooting smaller calibers, like .22 or .177? If I shim the scope or use a base that allows me to angle it, then the rifle becomes worthless for anything closer than 100 yds (I also shoot 50 yds). If I sight the scope at 50 yds then I have to zoom out to 9x or less to be able to use my Mil Dots for sighting. Worse yet, the crosshairs on my SFP scope completely cover the bull's eye. Or do you guys all have rifles set up for 100 yds and don't use it for anything else?
Mil-dot use the dots and turrets
A lot of rocket science, but you get to this part
Making Adjustments with a Mil Dot Scope
https://www.targettamers.com/guides/mil-dot-explained/ (https://www.targettamers.com/guides/mil-dot-explained/)
Just got to bring it down to pellet gun level.
Duplex hold my mouth just right
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Mil-dot use the dots and turrets
A lot of rocket science, but you get to this part
Making Adjustments with a Mil Dot Scope
https://www.targettamers.com/guides/mil-dot-explained/ (https://www.targettamers.com/guides/mil-dot-explained/)
Just got to bring it down to pellet gun level.
Duplex hold my mouth just right
I guess I didn't explain myself very well. Unless I shim the scope substantially the bullet drop is beyond the adjustment limits of my scope. I know how mil dots are supposed to be used, and on both my scopes (one is 12x the other 18x) the dots are calibrated for use at the highest magnification. Unfortunately the aim point is out of view when I zoom in that much. So instead I've zoomed out to about 9x (the mil dots no longer being at the proper scale), do my best guestimate at where the holdover should be, and fire 3 shots. Then I assess the group and move my aim point as required.
A bunch of years ago I set up my PB to shoot 1,000 yds. Holdover was something like 12-15 feet. I had to get a special 20 MOA rail and still had to max out the elevation on the scope. I could do something like that with my air rifle but before I do I was wondering whether you veterans of the sport had a better idea. (Of course I -could- just get a .25 or .30, that would solve the massive holdover issue. ;) ).
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My streamline .177 is sighted in at 30 yards. My Crown in .22 is sighted in at 50. While I do have the ability to shoot at 92 yards in my backyard, I usually reserve those shots for .25 or above. On those rare windless days I might shoot at ping pong balls or small water filled tin cans at 92 with the .177 or .22. I just don't have the inclination or capability to shoot at 150 yards & up with a pellet gun. It might be fun though. But in my case hitting something at those longer ranges with small calibers would be mostly pure luck. I do have FX No Limit rings on those 2 guns which allows me to put a bit of angle in the scope. They also keep me pretty much keep me from having to decide low, medium, or high rings just to clear the mag on certain guns. I'm afraid that holdover concerns are something we airgun shooters have to live with. Hmmmmm, looks like I've been no help to you at all.
Paul
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Find an aim point way above the intended target, I am serious back when I thought I should try my most powerful and accurate break barrels out to 100, I set up an old hollow core door as the target holder, then place an aim point on top, and a larger target below, walked it in from there, and was able to hit a coffee can repeatedly with both rifles, but the .25 had the edge over the .22 with a slight left to right breeze.
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My streamline .177 is sighted in at 30 yards. My Crown in .22 is sighted in at 50. While I do have the ability to shoot at 92 yards in my backyard, I usually reserve those shots for .25 or above. On those rare windless days I might shoot at ping pong balls or small water filled tin cans at 92 with the .177 or .22. I just don't have the inclination or capability to shoot at 150 yards & up with a pellet gun. It might be fun though. But in my case hitting something at those longer ranges with small calibers would be mostly pure luck. I do have FX No Limit rings on those 2 guns which allows me to put a bit of angle in the scope. They also keep me pretty much keep me from having to decide low, medium, or high rings just to clear the mag on certain guns. I'm afraid that holdover concerns are something we airgun shooters have to live with. Hmmmmm, looks like I've been no help to you at all.
Paul
No, your answer is helpful. This is sort of what I was thinking. I'd really like to get in on the NUAH competition but all I (currently) have are .22 rifles. Pellet drop for a .25 is substantially less than a .22 so I might be better off upgrading.
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I don't understand why you are having this issue.... If you are sighted in at 30 yards, and your scope MilDots are calibrated at the magnification you are using (3.6" per dot at 100 yards), you should only be about 5 Mildots low at 100 yards, even at 900 fps with a decent pellet (BC = 0.03).... Chairgun says the drop is only 26.4" more at 100 than at 30.... I used a scope height of 1.5" for the above....
Now if your scope is actually calibrated at 10x, which is the usual, then at 18X you would be 9 dots down, not 5, so that is likely your problem.... If that is the case, then either shooting at a lower magnification, cranking the scope up in elevation, or shimming it about 20 MOA.... or some combination of the above.... is your solution....
I mostly shoot 100 yard with a 12X scope (where the MilDots are calibrated at 10X), and my gun is sighted at 40 yards.... I shoot 18 gr. JSBs at 950 fps in .22 cal and I am exactly 5 dots low at 100 yards, with a scope 1.5" above the bore, and not shimmed.... I have TONS of elevation adjustment left, but I never "click", I just hold over.... I have a .25 cal shooting 25.4 gr. JSBs and a .30 cal shooting 44.8 gr. JSBs, all at the same velocity, and they all have identical trajectories and the same scope setup... All are sighted at 40 yards, and all require a 5 dot holdover at 100 yards at 12X.... Pellet drop is almost completely dependant on velocity, the BC has only a small effect.... and the caliber has no effect if the BC is the same.... I guess the next question is, what velocity are you shooting?....
Bob
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I don't understand why you are having this issue.... If you are sighted in at 30 yards, and your scope MilDots are calibrated at the magnification you are using (3.6" per dot at 100 yards), you should only be about 5 Mildots low at 100 yards, even at 900 fps with a decent pellet (BC = 0.03).... Chairgun says the drop is only 26.4" more at 100 than at 30.... I used a scope height of 1.5" for the above....
Hmm... I think I better re-measure my 100 yds target. Something isn't right.
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I don't understand why you are having this issue.... If you are sighted in at 30 yards, and your scope MilDots are calibrated at the magnification you are using (3.6" per dot at 100 yards), you should only be about 5 Mildots low at 100 yards, even at 900 fps with a decent pellet (BC = 0.03).... Chairgun says the drop is only 26.4" more at 100 than at 30.... I used a scope height of 1.5" for the above....
Now if your scope is actually calibrated at 10x, which is the usual, then at 18X you would be 9 dots down, not 5, so that is likely your problem.... If that is the case, then either shooting at a lower magnification, cranking the scope up in elevation, or shimming it about 20 MOA.... or some combination of the above.... is your solution....
I mostly shoot 100 yard with a 12X scope (where the MilDots are calibrated at 10X), and my gun is sighted at 40 yards.... I shoot 18 gr. JSBs at 950 fps in .22 cal and I am exactly 5 dots low at 100 yards, with a scope 1.5" above the bore, and not shimmed.... I have TONS of elevation adjustment left, but I never "click", I just hold over.... I have a .25 cal shooting 25.4 gr. JSBs and a .30 cal shooting 44.8 gr. JSBs, all at the same velocity, and they all have identical trajectories and the same scope setup... All are sighted at 40 yards, and all require a 5 dot holdover at 100 yards at 12X.... Pellet drop is almost completely dependant on velocity, the BC has only a small effect.... and the caliber has no effect if the BC is the same.... I guess the next question is, what velocity are you shooting?....
Bob
That works, but I'm no pro so I zero at day 30 cause I shoot that the most so I set my zero lock on that then go to 100 as we're saying and and adjust to 100 useing croshair . mil dot covers a 3/4" bulls eye dot or something for me not using the fine croshair.
Guess everybody got there thing.
Thing is something's not right somehow cause 20-100 yards are not that major adjusting as he's saying. Unless low power , low power like 450 fps and using heavy pellet that's just flat falling out at distance.
Maybe I'm over my head here now...
Ya, go to harbor freight and grab a cheap 100' tape on one side and meters on one side .
I keep one at/on my bench Incase I want to quick check or change a rack.
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I need to apologize to you guys, my original post was in error in several areas.
First, I'm really sure my "100 yds" is accurate or not. Our farm is on the side of a mountain and I used a 25' tape measure. I really need to get a longer measuring tape and measure it again. I've got a funny feeling I under estimated the distance.
Second, my scope isn't a real "mil dot" scope. It's an old Nikon hunting scope with a super thick reticle and 3 circles under the cross hair. I've long since lost the manual and have never bothered to learn just how this reticle.
Looking at my aim point and where the pellets are hitting I would guess that the pellet drop is very close to what rsterne calculated.
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Put up a piece of graph paper at whatever distance you can clearly see the lines at with your scope at maximum magnification.... eg. 25 or 50 yards.... Count the squares between the circles on your scope and convert that to inches.... Then multiply to (100 / your distance) to find out how many inches at 100 yards.... For example, if your circles at 2" apart at 50 yards, they will be 4" at 100 yards.... One MilDot is 3.6" at 100 yards....
Bob
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That sound like the reticle my Nikon Buckmaster has. There's an app for it.
http://spoton.nikonsportoptics.com/spoton/spoton.html#:4 (http://spoton.nikonsportoptics.com/spoton/spoton.html#:4)
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Ha, when you discribe your scope with bdc and thick crosshair I thought of the crosman center point spectrum scope
Now don't know if it will help look at page 2 at what that guy (jungle hunter) did to calibrate.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=125266.20 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=125266.20)
Ok what bob says would work..
Good luck
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Put up a piece of graph paper at whatever distance you can clearly see the lines at with your scope at maximum magnification.... eg. 25 or 50 yards.... Count the squares between the circles on your scope and convert that to inches.... Then multiply to (100 / your distance) to find out how many inches at 100 yards.... For example, if your circles at 2" apart at 50 yards, they will be 4" at 100 yards.... One MilDot is 3.6" at 100 yards....
Bob
Thank you Bob, excellent tutorial.
Yes, I believe it is a Nikon Buckmaster. It came off a PB I rarely use. The glass is clear but the reticle is worthless for target shooting. I have other scopes already mounted on other PB's so I have other options but I was hoping I wouldn't have to mess with that.
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Yes, I believe it is a Nikon Buckmaster. It came off a PB I rarely use. The glass is clear but the reticle is worthless for target shooting. I have other scopes already mounted on other PB's so I have other options but I was hoping I wouldn't have to mess with that.
The one I have is on a PB. It's mainly a hunting scope, but I have shot some impressive 100 yard groups with mine. There are plenty of cheap scopes out there that will do what you're asking. I have a couple by cvlife that work well for me. I just qualified for Nuah with a cvlife 3-9x on .177 Stormrider.
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Yes, I believe it is a Nikon Buckmaster. It came off a PB I rarely use. The glass is clear but the reticle is worthless for target shooting. I have other scopes already mounted on other PB's so I have other options but I was hoping I wouldn't have to mess with that.
The one I have is on a PB. It's mainly a hunting scope, but I have shot some impressive 100 yard groups with mine. There are plenty of cheap scopes out there that will do what you're asking. I have a couple by cvlife that work well for me. I just qualified for Nuah with a cvlife 3-9x on .177 Stormrider.
No doubt the sub $200 range today has a lot to offer.
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UTG's with the etched glass reticle are more than fine and budget friendly,... though you can still buy your way up even with them. Lot's of bang for the buck.
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For break barrels I go with UTG, and also Center Point, 4-16 x40 or there was a 3-12 IIR on the bargain gate that has also proven durable and not break the bank. UTG typically has the most mil dots for holdover.
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For break barrels I go with UTG, and also Center Point, 4-16 x40 or there was a 3-12 IIR on the bargain gate that has also proven durable and not break the bank. UTG typically has the most mil dots for holdover.
That's a good point, and I don't think he specified what platform this would be used on.
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This could be of interest in a fixed power
https://airgunopticsplus.com/collections/scopes/products/discovery-optical-sight-vt-2-10x44-sf-tactical-riflescope-with-mil-dot-reticle-fixed-power-rifle-scope
Also in 8x
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This could be of interest in a fixed power
https://airgunopticsplus.com/collections/scopes/products/discovery-optical-sight-vt-2-10x44-sf-tactical-riflescope-with-mil-dot-reticle-fixed-power-rifle-scope
Also in 8x
I have a Discovery scope on my Prod and I really like it.
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UTG's with the etched glass reticle are more than fine and budget friendly,... though you can still buy your way up even with them. Lot's of bang for the buck.
I agree Chris. UTG glass etched are my choice in that price range. If only the entire reticle were illuminated. But in good lighting superb.
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UTG's with the etched glass reticle are more than fine and budget friendly,... though you can still buy your way up even with them. Lot's of bang for the buck.
I agree Chris. UTG glass etched are my choice in that price range. If only the entire reticle were illuminated. But in good lighting superb.
All of mine do light up fully,.. so not sure what you have. All mine are the mil-dot series. They did come out with one here recent that was basic cross hair and only the center dot lit up. Other than that, I do not know.
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UTG's with the etched glass reticle are more than fine and budget friendly,... though you can still buy your way up even with them. Lot's of bang for the buck.
I agree Chris. UTG glass etched are my choice in that price range. If only the entire reticle were illuminated. But in good lighting superb.
All of mine do light up fully,.. so not sure what you have. All mine are the mil-dot series. They did come out with one here recent that was basic cross hair and only the center dot lit up. Other than that, I do not know.
I'll have to try one of those. Mine have the glass etched UMOA reticle. Only the center + is illuminated.
https://leapers.com/index.php?act=prod_detail&itemno=OP3-GM3124UMOA
UMOA RETICLE:
The MOA (UMOA) reticle features hash marks at MOA increments for precise bullet drop and wind drift compensation, as well as, range estimation. At 10X magnification at 100 yards, the reticle provides a 4 MOA (from end to end) center cross and equally distanced hash marks at 2 MOA increments all the way up to 50 MOA for holdover, 20 MOA for hold under, and 30 MOA on each side for wind drift. The center cross can be illuminated to assist aiming under different light conditions.
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Different day, different rifle, different scope and rings. I'm using a Vortex 4-12x40 scope here with adjustable rings. I added 1mm of elevation to the back ring. I'm a big fan of Vortex scopes and the reticle on this one is nice and thin. Here's my groups from this morning. Still my 100+ yds range, middle target is where I sighted in the scope and then I put 5 rounds in each of the corner targets. I'm feeling better today. ;)
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Well that scope looks promising vs the one you were using. You look on the right track.
Oops.. different gun , sorry.
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Very nice for 100 yards. Better than many.
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I zero my 56th and 470th at 50 yards at the second upper mil dot so at 75 or 100 yards I don't have to use so much hold over. Seems to keep everything closer to the center of the sight picture.
Maybe you could use the third or forth mill dot.
I wonder if a 30mm scope would help and lower mounts.
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I prefer the UTG SWAT scopes as they give you 9 mil dots to work with.
I zero at 35 to 40 yards. I find a hold over of 4 to 6 mil dots works for me for 90+ yards in .30 cal RS.
I also use FX No Limit rings just in case I need to adjust the scope.
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For hold over, man I can get off in the weeds on this one. Better have your snake chaps.
Here are my starting steps
Step 1 get that chrony going
Step 2 input data into Strelock (pellet, speed, scope reticle and height above bore etc…) and get MPBR for 2”
Step 3 Zero on the closest 5. For example if the MPBR is 72yds I zero at 70 yds. I know I know its just me.
Step 4 Set your distance of target in strelock and it should show the calculated POA.
Step 5 Verify that the calculations are right. If they are off then you can calculate the BC to make corrections. There is a section in the app for that.
I do use a 20 MOA adapter from dovetail to picatinny riser on the FX Elite .25.