My .357 Hog Hammer (Condor)

[Qdoggus]

That's great!! My 308 Condor with a Dyotat100 valve is being converted to a 357.

That means I have to start over on my mold collection.  :/ I have dozens of 308 molds and only one 357 which will be the heaviest I will shoot. Lyman 358156 gc which is 155 grains. I better get to started collecting molds again!! whoohoo

One thing I need to say and I want to be nice about it is that you have to have your crony 6 feet from your bigbore or you will get false speeds from the muzzle blast. 1 foot is just too close.

Your 357 looks great and I look forward to seeing more of it!!


Good Hunting!!

Tworr

   Awesome, good to know and thank you. I used to set it up for 4 feet of distance between muzzle and chrony, when space permitted, but my own personal experience is that it had negligible to no effect on the readings, unless closer than 4 inches. I tested this many times over with both co2 and hpa, moving closer with each shot testing for linearity, and 4 inches either gives me a weird obviously wrong number that cannot be repeated or an err1 reading.

   If you get the same speed with linear fps drop according to fill pressure (shot curve), then how can it be erroneous? If it is repeatable and obeys the laws of physics, then it's good in my book. With a powder burner, rimfire, or centerfire where there are other solids exiting the barrel other than the round itself, I could absolutely see this being true. Also, if you are six feet from the muzzle with an airgun, you are no longer testing muzzle velocity (velocity AT the muzzle), but downrange velocity.

   Now if I got 1500 fps with a 220 gr then of course that would be a mulligan to me, or what target shooters call a "flyer". I am very painstaking in testing and of course, another thing to consider is that density altitude plays into pressure variances as well, so if I go 1000 ft higher in elevation all other things being equal, my speeds should in theory go down.

Good hunting to you too!

[tworr]

It's a standard distance of reference for bigbores that puts out a large blast or air. Smaller calibers can get away with being closer and maybe even shrouded bigbores could as well.

Take a look at your video. You can see the spray coming out the end of the barrel. That's the water droplets, lithium grease and lead particles being sprayed out that can cause erroneous chrony readings.

I've shot thousands of rounds testing different 308 valves, top hats and hammer setups and anything closer and I would get Err or faster speeds than I should have been getting. It matters.

My 458 Quackenbush. You better believe it matters. 

 

[Qdoggus]

It's a standard distance of reference for bigbores that puts out a large blast or air. Smaller calibers can get away with being closer and maybe even shrouded bigbores could as well.

Take a look at your video. You can see the spray coming out the end of the barrel. That's the water droplets, lithium grease and lead particles being sprayed out that can cause erroneous chrony readings.

I've shot thousands of rounds testing different 308 valves, top hats and hammer setups and anything closer and I would get Err or faster speeds than I should have been getting. It matters.

My 458 Quackenbush. You better believe it matters.

First off, I appreciate your contribution, even if I disagree. I think that if it were measuring water droplets that would be less than a grain, it would be traveling ALOT faster than what I posted. The Chrony is meant to measure solid masses, or anything that fully obstructs the wavelength of light that it is calibrated to. Second of all this is not a debate, if the numbers follow a linear curve and they do not defy the laws of physics then they are not erroneous. I have had erroneous readings of greater than 1500 fps before and that was at less than 4 inches from the first sensor. Standard, where is that standard defined? I see how rimfire .22 can be at 5 feet or closer according to Chrony's own website. If I am the kind of person that says okay you're right I'll move it back to 6 feet, well what if I still over achieve your expectations? Will I have to move back to 12 feet to be considered legitimate measurement? Well what if that doesn't get my numbers low enough to meet your expectations? My barrel at the lead in is .357, knowing this I had the rounds sized to .356 so that they slide into the lead in with no force and this would theoretically lessen some of the friction associated with pressure based expansion while still allowing the 1/16 rifling to engage, probably something that nobody considered.

I am not here to meet anyone's expectations save for the fulfillment of my oath to God and country. Also just because you've experienced certain limitations does not ensure that I will. My hope is actually to inspire someone to come along and do better, not to be at the top of anything, so I gain nothing from lying.

[QVTom]

Lets watch our tone please and keep the thread informational.  Thanks!

[rsterne]

I have used my Chrony at only 1 yard from the muzzle with my .458 Hayabusa, shooting 550 FPE, and if I move the Chrony out to 3 yards the only change is a few fps loss from the additional distance.... On the other hand, I have had errors using a CO2 gun when full and spraying liquid CO2 at the same 1 yard.... My point is, that if it works, it works, there is no magic distance, nor is there a standard.... However, if you are getting weird (inconsistent or illogical) velocities, set the Chrony further out and see if it makes a difference.... it usually does.... Incidently, Physics does not dictate that every shot is slower as the pressure drops, that only occurs if you have the gun tuned that way.... and it will be very inefficient if that is the case....

Bo

[Qdoggus]

Lets watch our tone please and keep the thread informational.  Thanks!

Absolutely, but please allow me to respond in kind to people that have concerns about my accuracy and/or integrity.

I have used my Chrony at only 1 yard from the muzzle with my .458 Hayabusa, shooting 550 FPE, and if I move the Chrony out to 3 yards the only change is a few fps loss from the additional distance.... On the other hand, I have had errors using a CO2 gun when full and spraying liquid CO2 at the same 1 yard.... My point is, that if it works, it works, there is no magic distance, nor is there a standard.... However, if you are getting weird (inconsistent or illogical) velocities, set the Chrony further out and see if it makes a difference.... it usually does.... Incidently, Physics does not dictate that every shot is slower as the pressure drops, that only occurs if you have the gun tuned that way.... and it will be very inefficient if that is the case....

Bo

Well I guess it's just inefficient then because at 3000 psi my shots are faster than shots taken at 1000 psi. What is the point of power chasers moving to 4500psi if not for the fps increase?


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By the way I'm uploading a video right now that I made today at the range of my condor (with chrony at a measured 7 feet from muzzle) making 169 FPE at 2100 psi, which is lower than I feel comfortable shooting, but the fire station was gone on call when I showed up to fill my tanks today. Link below...

[rsterne]

Welcome to the GTA.... After you have been here a while, I'm sure you will tone down your presence and realize we're not all idiots, and that some of us actually have a tiny bit of knowledge.... Perhaps it is a simple comprehension problem (not reading what is written), or perhaps you just want to be argumentative.... Hoping it is the former, I will elaborate on my statement above....

Physics does not dictate that every shot is slower as the pressure drops

A properly tuned, unregulated PCP, has the velocity start slightly below the peak, the velocity increases as the pressure drops, peaks, and then decreases as the pressure drops further.... You can certainly tune a PCP so that the first shot is the fastest, and the velocity declines thereafter, but doing so requires it to use more air than if, for example, you tuned it to have two equal shots and then a slow decline, and MUCH more air than for a properly tuned PCP.... Using more air than necessary to develop a certain level of FPE is what I meant by inefficient.... You can learn from that, or continue to argue, at which point I will stop responding to this thread.... as I have learned, slowly, over the years, not to feed the trolls....

EDIT: I notice you have edited your original statement about a linear DECLINE in velocity with pressure, so perhaps the lesson is already learned.... in which case I find it curious that you would chose to argue the point further by stating:

Well I guess it's just inefficient then because at 3000 psi my shots are faster than shots taken at 1000 psi. What is the point of power chasers moving to 4500psi if not for the fps increase?

Bob

[Qdoggus]

Welcome to the GTA.... After you have been here a while, I'm sure you will tone down your presence and realize we're not all idiots, and that some of us actually have a tiny bit of knowledge.... Perhaps it is a simple comprehension problem (not reading what is written), or perhaps you just want to be argumentative.... Hoping it is the former, I will elaborate on my statement above....

Physics does not dictate that every shot is slower as the pressure drops

A properly tuned, unregulated PCP, has the velocity start slightly below the peak, the velocity increases as the pressure drops, peaks, and then decreases as the pressure drops further.... You can certainly tune a PCP so that the first shot is the fastest, and the velocity declines thereafter, but doing so requires it to use more air than if, for example, you tuned it to have two equal shots and then a slow decline, and MUCH more air than for a properly tuned PCP.... Using more air than necessary to develop a certain level of FPE is what I meant by inefficient.... You can learn from that, or continue to argue, at which point I will stop responding to this thread.... as I have learned, slowly, over the years, not to feed the trolls.... 

Bob

Fair enough, lets try this again for the sake of posterity. I have an unregulated, untuned condor, that has so far between 3 calibers, shot fairly hot. I am at this point reaching for maximum fpe, then I will "tune" it to shoot consistently. You know what my goals are, and I see no sense arguing about it either. I will try to maintain a more respectful tone and I apologize to both you and tworr if I have offended you. Please understand that I have accomplished a lot of things for my young age with varying degrees of naysayers and generally disproportionately spiteful people that keep telling me that what I do is not possible.... and I probably brought this expectation unfairly to this community. The naysayers haven't stopped me yet, but I digress, I am positive that a grand majority of the community here have a very firm understanding of physics, what is at play, and what is not, and I did not mean to imply that you were unknowledgeable in this regard, only that my experiences were such as they were. To me, an unregulated non-tuned pcp means that greater pressure equals greater expansion between differentials, and greater force behind a pressurized obstruction or projectile, always working against friction to develop inertia within the confines of a given gravity value, all while considering the effects of different density altitudes on pressurized vessel output. So of course results will vary at different altitudes.

I have no interest in being argumentative, and it wouldn't be a bad thing in my book to instead make friends while here. I am also new and of course unestablished, but in person you will not have met an easier person (if a bit intimidating in size) to get along with that knows a little about a lot and a lot about a little. I know enough to tell you I know nothing. By the way I am not, nor have I ever been a troll, just an honest and somewhat opinionated individual and that has so far spent a lifetime trying new things.

Oh an BTW, I did not edit my comment for argument's sake, I was merely elaborating on my statement.

[rsterne]

Fair enough.... As you continue to learn the intricacies of PCPs, you will realize that indeed there are some governing principles that provide limits to what we can and cannot do with expanding air.... It has taken me several years to realize this, and I am constantly learning, and sometimes I have to find a new theory when an old one is proven in error.... I'm not sure what you mean by a "non-tuned" PCP, because all of our current designs have a "balance point" where the hammer cannot open the valve fully against the reservoir pressure, causing the velocity to decrease with increased pressure.... and the other side of that is that for a given pressure, caliber, bullet weight and barrel length, there is a maximum valve dwell beyond which you cannot achieve more velocity, because the bullet has already left the barrel.... Therefore, there is a maximum usable hammer strike, beyond which you will not get any increase in velocity.... but you will certainly use more air than you need to for the FPE obtained....

Tuning for maximum FPE is pretty much the first thing I do when building a new PCP, as it shows me what the limits of the design are.... That exploration leads to a graph like this....



You will note that adding hammer strike beyond a certain point does nothing except waste air.... What is not shown is that if you operate on the "knee" of the curve, where the velocity plateau stops, but before the downslope, you can achieve a tune where you get 2-3 shots at nearly full velocity, but using much less air.... That is a great place to be for a big-bore, as you can shoot it tethered with good efficiency, and get 2-3 shots off tether within a very narrow ES.... Conventional tuning for a normal "bell-curve" as used in smaller caliber PCPs will be found at the bottom end of the knee, where the downslope starts.... I hope you find this information useful, once you have explored the "flat-out" performance (and admittedly cool) part of the process....

Bob

[Qdoggus]

Decided to go out and put a little shot string together and I'll upload a short video in a minute. I'm still waiting on some goodies to arrive but here is my shot string with a little info. If anyone cares to comment, feel free to tell me what this shot string says about my current setup. Basically I can get 17-20 shots @100+ fpe.

Starting Pressure 2900 psi- ending pressure 1750 psi (according to the reservoir gauge). Hammer preload 3/3. Max fpe was 167 with 128.4gr air venture round nose @ 765.3 fps.

I have a talontunes qcth that was designed for .22/.25, an 82 gram hammer/striker setup, and that's it for upgrades so far, the rest is factory until the new parts come in, then I'll get another shot string to measure changes. Oh and Chrony to muzzle distance was a measured 10 feet.

1-   765.3fps @2900psi
2-   760 fps @2800psi
3-   752.3 @2700psi
4-   749 @2600psi
5-   736.3 @2550psi
6-   736 @2450psi
7-   715 @2400psi
8-   711.4 @2300psi
9-   701 @2250psi
10- 701.7 @2200psi
11- 690.5 @2150psi
12- 685.8 @2100psi
13- 678.3 @2050psi
14- 669.4 @2000psi
15- 664.5 @1900psi
16- 655.3 @1850psi
17- 640.2 @1800psi


Here is a short video I did before the shot string.

[Monkeydad1969]

Hey Christopher.  I was wondering what happened to you.  Nice vid.  Looks like your almost there.

Joe

[rsterne]

I see only 6 shots within a 4%ES, and I'm guessing that with first shot fastest it's pretty much an air hog.... I would back off on the hammer strike just a bit until you see a bit of a curve, or at least to the point where the second shot is the fastest.... That would give you three shots of near equal velocity.... and I'm going to guess still over 750 fps.... while using less air....

Bob

[Qdoggus]

Hey Christopher.  I was wondering what happened to you.  Nice vid.  Looks like your almost there.

Joe

Yep, still here brother. Just making plans, doing research, etc.

I see only 6 shots within a 4%ES, and I'm guessing that with first shot fastest it's pretty much an air hog.... I would back off on the hammer strike just a bit until you see a bit of a curve, or at least to the point where the second shot is the fastest.... That would give you three shots of near equal velocity.... and I'm going to guess still over 750 fps.... while using less air....

Bob

That's a very good suggestion and thank you for the advice. Hammer preload has no discernible affect on velocity for me (never has really) and I have a video showing this, I only set it to 3/3 so that my 2900psi shot doesn't flub with valve lock if I slightly over fill with my big scuba tank that has no reg. I will be looking for a curve once I get a stiffer spring and my machinist gets done with my .357 valve (among other things I'm waiting on). Right now it seems that the hammer preload wheel is the same as it was for the two previous calibers... useless lol. As for it being an airhog, it always has been straight out of the box with nothing done to it and the first shot ALWAYS being fastest and following a decline in fps that correlates with declining pressure.

 My plan was always to sacrifice shot count for high FPE, and the goal is to get down to 6 very high FPE (relative of course) shots. I will tune it for consistency and a decent curve (for a big bore) after I reach for the max that this airhog can do.

Perhaps I need to check my barrel bushings for spacing, but the problem with that theory is that the other two barrels had bushings that were set before I got them and they still shot hot.

[QVTom]

Christopher, like Bob said less hammer strike and/or increase the breathing (flow) of the valve and a curve should manifest itself....

Are these JSBs?

Tom

[Qdoggus]

Christopher, like Bob said less hammer strike and/or increase the breathing (flow) of the valve and a curve should manifest itself....

Are these JSBs?

Tom

I agree Tom, that is how it's supposed to work, but... I have no control over hammer strike being that the power wheel has no effect on fps or shot count. I have checked and looked for an alternative even when I was shooting .22 factory everything in this same condor. I had the factory hammer/striker weight back in not too long ago for testing, but my shot string stayed the same versus the heavier hammer/striker weight.

In summary, it doesnt seem to matter where the power wheel is or whether I have the factory or heavy hammer assembly, I dont seem to be able to change anything. I complained about this nuance way back when I first got this condor, and through three calibers, this hasnt changed. The only solutions that worked for me were the tophat shim, and the quick change top hat with a restrictor screw. the power wheel is extending when I turn it, just for whatever reason this has never had the intended effect.

Also, no Tom, these are Air Venturi rounds and Mr. Hollowpoint spitzers. Do the .35 JSB pellets have the same high quality and consistency that their other caliber pellets do?

A buddy suggested I try shooting without the striker weight and observe any changes. I think I'll try that tomorrow.

[QVTom]

Yep you are on the right track with a lighter striker.  Don't discount the effect of a better breathing valve if possible.  Yes the JSBs made like the rest of their pellets, just bigger and more expensive.

Shooting JSBS @ 900 fps with a nice curve is an achievement.  Not many factory pellet shooters in 357 doing that.

Tom

[YEMX]

Future beast in the making.  Makes me want a Condor more and more.

Get one!!  One of us!  One of us!  One of us!

[Qdoggus]

Yep you are on the right track with a lighter striker.  Don't discount the effect of a better breathing valve if possible.  Yes the JSBs made like the rest of their pellets, just bigger and more expensive.

Shooting JSBS @ 900 fps with a nice curve is an achievement.  Not many factory pellet shooters in 357 doing that.

Tom

Thank you Tom. I think Ill try the JSBs. As for the valve, I have my machinist working on a .357 variant with better porting. He takes a while but he enjoys quirky jobs.

Future beast in the making.  Makes me want a Condor more and more.

Get one!!  One of us!  One of us!  One of us!

Thank you for making me laugh!

[Monkeydad1969]

Future beast in the making.  Makes me want a Condor more and more.

Get one!!  One of us!  One of us!  One of us!

I hear and obey. LOL!

Funny thing is there is guy not to far from me on Craigslist who is selling his, but he wants more than it's worth---at least more than I'll pay.

http://denver.craigslist.org/mat/5031677647.html

I will have one, probably next year.  I will probably buy used.  Still have a BT65, AT44, M-Rod, Sumatra 2500 on my short list, too.  And they say we have an addiction.  Whatev.

Joe---in denial.

[Qdoggus]

Hey everyone in the GTA family, I just wanted to provide an update. QVTom had advised me to focus a little effort towards a better breathing valve and until my machinist finishes my .357 valve, I decided to hone the tophat, as in remove the threading since I don't plan to use it on .357 anyways. My thinking is that the threads while minimal in footprint provide a little restriction and turbulence in a tophat that is made for .22 and .25 and already a bit too small for .357. So I took it down to the bare walls and took a couple of chrony shots today before playing around.

So for the pertinent info, it was 88F ambient with 60% humidity, very little wind. The Chronograph was situated a measured 10 feet from the muzzle to rule out any air or moisture droplets being read and the Chrony was also tested with my AR15 (300 Blackout) which shoots like a clock tells time (consistently relative to the load being shot). I am uploading the video now.

The first shot from 3000 psi was a 222.5gr spitzer at 621.7 fps for 191 fpe! I shot a second shot just to verify that it wasn't a hot-rodding dragonfly with a death wish that caused the reading or anything, next shot with a 222.4gr spitzer at 611.4 fps for 184.6fpe.

Afterwards I decided to test penetration at 40 yards with some 127 gr bullets against one pine 2x4 and two 1 inch pine boards stacked against each other. So I took three shots, the first went through the 2x4 and most of the way through the first 1" pine board, the second shot went completely through the 2x4 and both  1" pine boards behind it, the third shot went through the 2x4, into the 1" pine board, and left a considerable dent in the third pine board. I had a lot of fun today! Seeing how hard this thing punches wooden boards, I cant wait to find some unused toilets...lol.



I'll post the video when it's through uploading.


Here is the Chrony Video.