Pellet machine



Author Topic: Pellet machine  (Read 2915 times)

Offline Slavia

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 03:21:40 AM »
You might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc

Offline QVTom

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 02:36:55 PM »
One possible trouble spot I see, I say possible because I have no experience extruding lead, is the diameter of the slug that will be punched by the head core/punch pin is much larger than the waist of the die and will need to extrude into the skirt area to form properly.  Also I think you are looking at a lead strip with 6-10X the thickness as drawn.

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Offline Bullit

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 04:05:45 PM »
You're wasting a lot of lead by punch process, which means more cost in re-melts, to recover it.  With cutting round stock you're getting 99% yield, without handling sheet stock.  Let the supplier's round stock work and spooling, work to your advantage, for your equipment, dies, and men.  JMO

Offline David.Soliman

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 04:41:19 PM »
You're wasting a lot of lead by punch process, which means more cost in re-melts, to recover it.  With cutting round stock you're getting 99% yield, without handling sheet stock.  Let the supplier's round stock work and spooling, work to your advantage, for your equipment, dies, and men.  JMO

I have no supplier, I'll be melting lead ingots and making sheets out of them myself, it's extra work but I haven't found a supplier with lead wire.
Cutting the wire is a lot easier than punching holes and more economical, but feeding the lead shots/balls or what ever into the mold could be a lot more work than just re-melting the spent strip.

I am open to suggestions on how to feed pellet shots into the mold instead of punching it out of a sheet if you have any ideas please help me out here.

Offline Bullit

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 05:05:05 PM »
cut the "slug" and feed it downstream to your cold forming tooling. Yes, it is precise, but that's what you are trying to acheive.  The better you start with, the easier it is to acheive your goal...unless you really wanna spend big bucks on production.  I really don't know how pellets are made, but sheet wouldn't be my choice.   Lead is quite mallable.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 05:08:22 PM by Bullit »

Offline willbird

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 12:28:41 AM »
You're wasting a lot of lead by punch process, which means more cost in re-melts, to recover it.  With cutting round stock you're getting 99% yield, without handling sheet stock.  Let the supplier's round stock work and spooling, work to your advantage, for your equipment, dies, and men.  JMO

I have no supplier, I'll be melting lead ingots and making sheets out of them myself, it's extra work but I haven't found a supplier with lead wire.
Cutting the wire is a lot easier than punching holes and more economical, but feeding the lead shots/balls or what ever into the mold could be a lot more work than just re-melting the spent strip.

I am open to suggestions on how to feed pellet shots into the mold instead of punching it out of a sheet if you have any ideas please help me out here.

You can extrude your own lead wire easier than making sheets probably.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73664-Wire-extruding-with-log-splitter!!&highlight=lead+wire

Some folks apparently use a log splitter.

Any highly accurate system for pellets I think would have to at some point in the process bleed the lead cores to a consistent weight.
http://www.corbins.com/swaging.htm#csw


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Online TimmyMac1

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Talk to Mr. Pilkington
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 11:59:18 AM »
PCE is Pilkington Competition Equipment in Tenn. Scott Pilkington is a guy who knows what you need to know and has done what you want to do. He told me if I came up with the tooling cost or made the tooling he would make pellets on his machines.
That was a while ago so I'm not sure if he still has that capability but he is a guy who HAS the T-SHIRT. Scott is a Southern gentleman that is a lot smarter than the average guy. He has been emersed in the 10 meter scene for as long as I have been into FT. That is decades! He is also a Master engraver & Airgunsmith. Scott's PCE landline is 931-924-3400 website is; http://www.pilkguns.com/

I'm certain you do not need to invent the wheel. Just find the guy with the wheel factory and tell him what you want to make. This is a moment to avoid vertical integration. I'll bet there are pellet making machines that are under-utilized. They are extremely specialized machines, especially when you start talking about the precision stuff. I designed the RWS Superdome but I was never thinking I could come up with the machine to make it.
You need manufacturing means and resources to fund. Designing and production engineering is critical. It cost just as much to make a poor pellet as a good one. The design is the element best left to the people with the sharpest knowledge and expertise.
If You have specs You are ready to talk tooling & tolerances. Question is what are your tolerances and can you make the tooling. I'd go with a Pro because the first thing you learn in manufacturing is your limitations. You need the machines to do the actual manufacturing but I don't think you need to own them. You need the tooling but it would be best done by someone who is doing that at the highest level. The only reason I have manufactured what I have is because I know when to punt. A man needs to know his limitations!
Good Luck. We need some competition to stir things up. Nothing I'd like to see more than a New dome made in the USA that rocks. Dan Brown would be a good guy to get feedback in terms of what pellet he'd like to see for his bughole barrel. You need help in every aspect of the project and that is obvious by your questions. When you get Pro help it makes you look a lot smarter than you actually are. It worked for me. All you need is raw determination and you will get where you want to go. I'm living proof of that.
I would thrive on some American Made Ammo to shoot in the WORLDS BR championship in Australia(2015). That would be awesome. Go For It

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Offline David.Soliman

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Re: Talk to Mr. Pilkington
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 03:12:12 PM »
PCE is Pilkington Competition Equipment in Tenn. Scott Pilkington is a guy who knows what you need to know and has done what you want to do. He told me if I came up with the tooling cost or made the tooling he would make pellets on his machines.
That was a while ago so I'm not sure if he still has that capability but he is a guy who HAS the T-SHIRT. Scott is a Southern gentleman that is a lot smarter than the average guy. He has been emersed in the 10 meter scene for as long as I have been into FT. That is decades! He is also a Master engraver & Airgunsmith. Scott's PCE landline is 931-924-3400 website is; http://www.pilkguns.com/

I'm certain you do not need to invent the wheel. Just find the guy with the wheel factory and tell him what you want to make. This is a moment to avoid vertical integration. I'll bet there are pellet making machines that are under-utilized. They are extremely specialized machines, especially when you start talking about the precision stuff. I designed the RWS Superdome but I was never thinking I could come up with the machine to make it.
You need manufacturing means and resources to fund. Designing and production engineering is critical. It cost just as much to make a poor pellet as a good one. The design is the element best left to the people with the sharpest knowledge and expertise.
If You have specs You are ready to talk tooling & tolerances. Question is what are your tolerances and can you make the tooling. I'd go with a Pro because the first thing you learn in manufacturing is your limitations. You need the machines to do the actual manufacturing but I don't think you need to own them. You need the tooling but it would be best done by someone who is doing that at the highest level. The only reason I have manufactured what I have is because I know when to punt. A man needs to know his limitations!
Good Luck. We need some competition to stir things up. Nothing I'd like to see more than a New dome made in the USA that rocks. Dan Brown would be a good guy to get feedback in terms of what pellet he'd like to see for his bughole barrel. You need help in every aspect of the project and that is obvious by your questions. When you get Pro help it makes you look a lot smarter than you actually are. It worked for me. All you need is raw determination and you will get where you want to go. I'm living proof of that.
I would thrive on some American Made Ammo to shoot in the WORLDS BR championship in Australia(2015). That would be awesome. Go For It

TimmyMac1

Thank you for the sound advice, I have made a lot of custom airgun parts and I didn't machine one of them, I only design them. I am very convinced that taking it to an expert is a very good way to avoid the problems I don't know about.
I am only making the design here, and I know a machine shop with some high tech gizmos that can probably make it happen. I care very little about whether the people funding this project are actually willing to go through with it or not, I just want to design it (think it out) down to every screw. If the people with the money are actually willing to make it, it would be up to me to see that it works properly.

Determination is what I do best, I've never had a project succeed from the first build, but then again I never had one that failed.

Offline Bullit

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 03:40:19 PM »
Anything you can do to research your endeavor, will help you with the intricacies and logistics involved.  Timmy Mac has given you some good info in this avenue.  I wish you best success!

Offline shorty

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2013, 10:10:40 AM »
I didn't think we were all talking about making the best performing pellet in the USA here. Just a cheap machine that can make pellets at home for the enthusiasts. Never the less, I would still like to see something in the USA perform.

I have been and still am and engineer in the wire business for over 20 years. I have also built some pretty incredible machines. I would like to pass an idea over to consider. My sketches aren't the best but you should get the idea. If you need to make lead wire, it can be rolled fairly easy with a jewelers rolling mill (cheap under 300 bucks ). You can also draw your own lead using wire drawing dies. Used drawing dies can be found on the cheap. You can also use that jewelers mill to flatten your wire to a ribbon. By using a ribbon, there would be less waste than using sheet.

Here's the sketch of what my idea would be if spooled round wire/lead was used.
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Offline strever

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2013, 07:09:56 PM »
image too small and too dark to see
can you fix it?


Here's the sketch of what my idea would be if spooled round wire/lead was used.
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Offline David.Soliman

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2013, 08:12:03 AM »
I didn't think we were all talking about making the best performing pellet in the USA here. Just a cheap machine that can make pellets at home for the enthusiasts. Never the less, I would still like to see something in the USA perform.

I have been and still am and engineer in the wire business for over 20 years. I have also built some pretty incredible machines. I would like to pass an idea over to consider. My sketches aren't the best but you should get the idea. If you need to make lead wire, it can be rolled fairly easy with a jewelers rolling mill (cheap under 300 bucks ). You can also draw your own lead using wire drawing dies. Used drawing dies can be found on the cheap. You can also use that jewelers mill to flatten your wire to a ribbon. By using a ribbon, there would be less waste than using sheet.

Here's the sketch of what my idea would be if spooled round wire/lead was used.

Yeah I thought a jewelers' rolling mill is a perfect choice cause you can very precisely dial in the desired thickness an I did ask about their prices, they are very cheap less than 200 USD, determining the pellet volume is not as easy as it looks, I did make a drawing of the pellet in autoCAD but I am no expert so I'll be asking some computer wiz to help me find the volume which in turn will determine the strip thickness.

Another thing I've noticed on these RWS R10 pellets is that they have a matt surface, something that is very characteristic to sand blasting or beading, do you think they were beaded with some sort of abrasive (maybe titanium oxide?) to get rid of the flare?

I used to have a homebuilt stone tumbler that I think I can easily modify to test this idea on some Gamo pellets, I even have some titanium oxide and calcium oxide lying around.

Offline shorty

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2013, 12:41:41 PM »
Stever, I had to make the sketch smaller to meet the 200kb attachment. I don't know how I could make it bigger. I'll try to explain the idea though and possibly walk through the process.
Wire on the spool is de-reeled by the pinch rollers (pinch roller is driven). The pinch rollers feed the wire into the first plate to help it guide it into the second plate (this is the cutting operation). The wire is fed into the second plate at a desired length (pellet length) then slides down cutting off the lead at a certain length and the pellet is now in the second plate unsecured. As the plate moves further down with the cut piece of lead in it, the plate stops at the next operation which would be the punch press/ejection operation. Once both ends of the pellets ends have been formed, the pellet is then ejected and the plate moves up again to reset the process.

David, The formula for the ribbon is this:

Round wire size = thickness X Width / 3.142, sqrt then X 2.

For example: .22 cal pellet has a .2219" skirt size, So we would want a ribbon that is at a minimum of .222" thick and approximately .3" wide (width depending on how wide our punch mold is - I used .3" just for an example ).

Round wire shall be: .2911". That's a good starting point. There would be elongation during the rolling process so round wire size may need to be slightly larger.

End result of ribbon size would be approximate thickness .222" X Width .3" using a .2911" round wire.

The jewelers mill is capable of rolling lead. The rolls are typically hardend steel but, they aren't that hard. I have ran copper and aluminum through them with no problems. Although ferrous alloys really destroy them.

At my place of work, I have almost all the resources to make the lead wire (or ribbon) except for the lead. I am definitely in if someone wants to discuss. I have also thought of using different alloys instead of lead (just because I have them available).

I was thinking about alloys like 40% copper steel core, or copper clad aluminum, or just plain copper. All of these alloys can be easily annealed to have great formability. Ofcourse they would be much lighter than lead, but they sure would compete with the light alloy pellets on the market.
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Offline David.Soliman

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2013, 04:28:09 PM »
Made some progress, at least that's what I think. I tumbled some Gamo pellets with aluminum oxide and some water. They ended up having the same finish as the RWS R10 pellets, and it only took 10 minutes of tumbling, lead is softer than I thought.

Offline V12V12

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2013, 07:49:11 PM »
Hey great job on trying to tackle this issue of hobbyist making their OWN pellets vs the price gouging I've seen over years and years of watching the market. Esp those $.25cal pellets!

Often times ~70% price increase over .22. I know making these is not "easy," but it's not that "difficult" either vs some other forms of machining/engineering. $16 for a box of ~200-250 pellets, considering a "break in" for most AGis 500+ Seesh talk about an expensive hobby per gun. I do not see why it's been so long for this type of innovative thinking to be put in action by some hobbyist, thankfully we have folks such as yourself stepping up to such a monumental task! I too have many, many designs for pellets, but putting them into prototype/production has been/is always the weakest link; bridging the huge gap.

Good fortune to you, this is once again boosted my moral for the day when I can cast off the chains of overpriced pellets!!!... Nothing like seeing a box of $16, 200rnd .25cals vs a huge bin of .22cal rimfires selling for practically pennies per round. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread for sure!

Thanks!
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Offline shorty

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2013, 05:14:29 PM »
With all the complicated ideas of making machines to mass produce maybe there is an easier way for the home hobbyist.

Why can't we just make a 3 piece mold and melt the lead. My sketches aren't great but I can imagine just a 3 piece mold.

The bottom portion on the mold would be the pellet nose, the center mold would be an actual two piece mold ( have to be able to make a skirt ) , and the top mold would be the inside skirt.

I would guess the molds can be made from aluminum since the molten lead will not stick to it and the mold can be resistance heated to get to the temperature needed to melt the lead when a potential is put across the mold.

Then you would simply cut and weigh each piece of lead (cold), stick them in the center mold and assemble the complete mold. when assembled, you would pass a current through the mold to heat it and melt the lead. Stop the current and allow the part to cool and pop out the pellets
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 05:18:31 PM by shorty »
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Offline David.Soliman

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2013, 09:15:39 PM »
shorty what you're suggesting is too slow and time consuming even for the hobbyist with all the time in the world.

Plus melting lead won't give you the results you want, lead doesn't flow that well in these small tiny spaces, molding could be one step and has to be followed by swaging. So why not skip molding completely?

I am working on a hand held prototype that I think would be very nice for a hobbyist, there are springs and levers involved so it might be a bit tricky to make.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 09:17:27 PM by David.Soliman »

Offline willbird

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2013, 10:49:57 AM »
Hey great job on trying to tackle this issue of hobbyist making their OWN pellets vs the price gouging I've seen over years and years of watching the market. Esp those $.25cal pellets!

Often times ~70% price increase over .22. I know making these is not "easy," but it's not that "difficult" either vs some other forms of machining/engineering. $16 for a box of ~200-250 pellets, considering a "break in" for most AGis 500+ Seesh talk about an expensive hobby per gun. I do not see why it's been so long for this type of innovative thinking to be put in action by some hobbyist, thankfully we have folks such as yourself stepping up to such a monumental task! I too have many, many designs for pellets, but putting them into prototype/production has been/is always the weakest link; bridging the huge gap.

Good fortune to you, this is once again boosted my moral for the day when I can cast off the chains of overpriced pellets!!!... Nothing like seeing a box of $16, 200rnd .25cals vs a huge bin of .22cal rimfires selling for practically pennies per round. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread for sure!

Thanks!

THAT comes down to what I refer to as "economy of scale"...if you can sell every pellet you can make...the ones you make MORE of will be overall cheaper to make, because you just keep the machine(s) running, if you make them cheaper you sell them cheaper, they are more popular so the distro's you sell to are willing to maybe place large blanket orders you can count on.

As you get to smaller and smaller qty the price goes up and up.

I have been involved in quoting some jobs and the 1,5,25,100 prices are often strikingly different, and then if you would look at 1m,10m,100m,1000m,10,000m qty things would look really different on the top end than the bottom.

The R&D on a new pellet, to make sure you have something that somebody or other will CHERISH once they buy some to try must be quite extensive.

I STILL think that using a lead shot you can buy in 25 lb bags would make a lot if sense, just reform it...I'd settle for an ash can (like the old sheriden 5mm) formed in even a cheap Lee reloading press with a simple die. $47 for 25 lbs, 17,000 to the bag for BBB chilled shot that weighs 10.14 grains.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Chilled-Lead-Shot-4-25-lbs/productinfo/030CL04/

Overall it might be cheaper to get a barrel custom tailored to a more easily made pellet shape (or even a tiny conical bullet) than to try to duplicate even moderate quality pellets.

Bill
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 11:01:16 AM by willbird »
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Offline ericw

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2013, 01:32:25 PM »
For what it is worth...  I found a 25.4 grain lead shot ball in with my JSB King .25 cal , 25.4 grain pellets.   I would guess that means
they use lead shot as the starting material with no lead lost in the forming process.  The machine in the video used the same thing.  Seems there must be a good reason for going through the process to make shot first. 
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Offline willbird

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Re: Pellet machine
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2013, 01:45:10 PM »
For what it is worth...  I found a 25.4 grain lead shot ball in with my JSB King .25 cal , 25.4 grain pellets.   I would guess that means
they use lead shot as the starting material with no lead lost in the forming process.  The machine in the video used the same thing.  Seems there must be a good reason for going through the process to make shot first.

The BC of the lead ball is higher too :-). My dad said when he was a kid there was a "bb" pistol somebody or other made but it was made to use a round lead ball about #6 shot size. I have never set down and weighed lead shot. I'm sure the weight would vary due to minor changes to contaminates in the alloy. Also not sure of they can drop chilled shot over a certain size or not..maybe the bigger shot is magnum shot because the alloy has more surface tension and makes rounder spheres ?? Or  is it due to demand for larger sizes is more for hard shot not chilled shot ?? I seem to recall the "swan" shot they talk about in the revolutionary war periods was cut from lead sheets, then rolled between two hard planes to form (sort of) spheres.

Bill
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