Idea search to bottle a disc
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Idea search to bottle a disc
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Topic: Idea search to bottle a disc (Read 11967 times))
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Idea search to bottle a disc
«
on:
June 30, 2013, 01:30:04 PM »
I have being thinking of adding a bottle to my disco. I have not found much information on this so I figure I start a thread. This is all at the Idea stage.
I'm thinking of using a 22ci bottle regulated at 1600 psi and a hpa block addapter from JSD airman
I will have to order another air tube from crosmas to cut it down to size.
I made a rendering in photoshop on how it would look. The proportions are right the only thing is I'm not sure the vertical placement of the bottle in relation ship to the gun. One inaccuracy of the picture is that the gauge on the bottle will be on the other side. but this can be used just to illustrate.
I will have to cut and inlet the stock for the bottle.
the last thing I realize while writing this post is that I most like like will have to get a 4500 psi tank to get the most out of this set up.
daniel
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
Ribbonstone
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 12030
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #1 on:
June 30, 2013, 02:04:03 PM »
Would work...even with a 3K regged to 2000-1800psi would work great.
If you were to tune a standard Disco to run it's absolute best at 2K-1.8K, no "run up" to working at that pressure, that's pretty much what you'd get with the bottle on board. Gun would never see more than the output pressure (call it 2K) so nothing fancy needed to get it running right, just more air to keep it at that peak.
Logged
Louisiana
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26926
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #2 on:
June 30, 2013, 02:08:14 PM »
Just be aware that reducing the volume of the air reservoir will affect the performance.... If you don't have enough volume between the output of the regulator and the valve, the AVERAGE pressure during the shot will be less than the setpoint of the regulator.... Ideally, since the valve screws in the Disco are questionable at 3000 psi, you should use a 1.8K burst disc on the downstream side of the regulator in case it leaks, as you don't really want 3000 psi in the gun.... That means running 1600 psi may give you some problems with blown burst discs (I've had it happen), so 1400-1500 psi may be a better choice....
If you are only looking for an extended shot count (and flat shot string) at stock power levels you will probably be OK.... If you are planning on increasing the power over stock, you may well end up disappointed....
Bob
Logged
Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
Ribbonstone
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 12030
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #3 on:
June 30, 2013, 02:15:29 PM »
Right about the pressure...1400-1500 might be better. Illustration showed what seems to be plenty of "on deck" air (air between the regulator and valve) so standard Disco power at that pressure shouldn't be a problem.
Logged
Louisiana
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #4 on:
June 30, 2013, 02:33:27 PM »
I want to run my disco at the power level that I I'm using now which is 33FPE. I'm getting 12 to 13 shots at 3% spread from 1800 pis to 1350 psi.
From the measurements I took I would have about 4+ inches of tube volume between the port gauge and the bottle adaptor. I plan to have as much volume as I can.
I can run my disco up to 3000 psi but I have found that I don't need it special because right now I'm filling up to 1800. my disco peek in power is between 1600 and 1450. That is why I was looking to use a regulated bottle set to 1600 psi
If it is not possible to keep my current power level this might just stay in the idea stage.
Current mods on the disco:
prod hammer and gauge port
Increase id of valve intake.
45 degree exit port
barrel ported to match stock disco tort
Heave spring but shorten about .25 in
( I use the short heavy spring becuase if I use the full length spring by string start at 900 fps with JSB 18.1 with no preload. the shorter spring start at around 800 and peaks at 950 with the same pellet)
coming soon mod: mrod trigger.
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #5 on:
June 30, 2013, 04:07:11 PM »
Or I could run the bottle without regulator and just fill to 2000. The only issue with that will be where I would put the fill nipple with the check valve and if I will have enough flow from the adaptor to the tube.
This will allow me to add about 1.5 of tube length.
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26926
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #6 on:
June 30, 2013, 04:45:34 PM »
You should be OK with 4" of tube as a plenum in a 33 FPE gun.... That is 28cc, close enough to the 1 cc per FPE I strive for....
Bob
Logged
Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #7 on:
June 30, 2013, 06:42:14 PM »
John
I have two reasons to add The bottle. One to increase The shot count and second to regulate it at 1600 psi. Right now I have a very accuate disco and I'm trying to improve on that. I like shooting at far distances and regulating should improve that but in also need the power To reduce the flight of
The pellet and make the tragectory flatter. Right now I can hit 1.5 spinners at 100 yards. I would say from 5 shots I hit 3.
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #8 on:
July 03, 2013, 07:37:51 AM »
I do have a question about the air volume in the tube and tank
I know that the air tube in the disco is 135cc and the one in the tank is 22 ci
They are not they referring to the same units. I'm a little confused on that. I'm trying to figure out how many shots I will get per fill. This would be shooting form 3000 psi to 1600 psi (regulated at 1600)
do I assume that:
disco tube is 135 cc or 7.69 ci
Bottle is 360.5 cc or 22 ci
Right now My disco is consuming roughly 50 psi per shot with the tube. Based on that I think I will have about 30 shots shots per fill but that is based on the tube volume. Is there a formula that can help me with this.
Thank you
Daniel
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26926
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #9 on:
July 03, 2013, 12:10:56 PM »
In both cases the volume is the internal volume of the tube / tank.... In a stock Disco you use about 900-1000 psi.... To find out the amount of air used, divide that by 14.5 to convert to bar, so 900 / 14.5 = 62.... Then multiply by the volume of the reservoir, which is (135 / 16.4) = 8.23 CI to get 62 x 8.23 = 510 CI of air used.... For the 22 CI tank you will be using 1400 psi (3000 - 1600) which is 97 bar times 22 CI = 2134 CI of air.... Assuming the same amount of air per shot, 2134 / 510 = 4.2 times as many shots from the bottle as from the Disco tube....
Bob
Logged
Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #10 on:
July 03, 2013, 12:20:31 PM »
Bob,
Thank you very much!!!!
I kept trying to figure that out with little success. So theoretically I would be getting 40+ Shots. On one fill.
I think I will proceed with bottling the disco. I can always put it back. I just hope I get the same power level. If it is a little under that will be fine too.
I took better measurements and I should have 4.5 to 5 inches of plenum, more if the TKO clears the tank. I would love to be able to get 6in. My other optionswould be to cut the part of the bottom of the TKO for more clearance to add about .75 in of plenum.
Daniel
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26926
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #11 on:
July 03, 2013, 12:50:44 PM »
You should get a lot more shots than that.... A modded Disco, properly tuned at 33 FPE should use about 33 CI of air per shot (or less).... so about 15 shots on a stock reservoir, and about 65 shots on a 22CI tank.... I have one that does 40 shots on only a 13 CI tank at 37 FPE.... 5" of plenum is plenty measured between the tank block and the Disco gauge block.... I would suggest you replace that with the gauge block from a PRod, it has a much large hole through it for airflow into the valve.... It doesn't make much difference on a stock Disco, but at 33 FPE is does.... The longer you make the plenum, the further forward the tank, and the more unbalanced the gun.... That's why I turned my tanks around when I made my tank blocks....
Top gun is a 2560 PCP, shoots 52 FPE at 1800 psi (17 CI tank), bottom gun is a 2260 PCP, shoots 37 FPE at 1600 (13 CI tank).... The tubes are full length 2260 tubes, and NO I don't make my reversed tank blocks for sale.... *grin*
Bob
Logged
Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #12 on:
July 03, 2013, 01:00:28 PM »
You are right. I get 16 shots per fill. I was being very conservative on the shot count. 40 Shots was my threshold set by me to decide if I go forward.
I already have the prod gauge block!
I think I will be fine with the bottle forward. I have a boyds stock which is significantly heavier than the disco stock. Although I'll be cutting my disco stock and test before I touch the boyds.
So based on your numbers I should be getting 60 shots in the conservative side.
Edit: I just checked and I'm using 34 ci per shot. that is the average on the string. so that should be about right for 1600 psi or a little less.
«
Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 02:15:36 PM by Rdsail
»
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #13 on:
July 03, 2013, 02:30:42 PM »
I placed the order at JDS Airman. I'll start building once I get the parts. Wish me luck!
Daniel
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #14 on:
July 08, 2013, 09:55:11 PM »
got the bottle and block today. I made a jig to drill the holes for block. I used the piece I cut off to make test holes. Once I got the hole accurate I proceeded to drill the holes. I double checked them with my caliper and they were almost perfect. The screws fit tight in the holes. I installed the tank and filled the 3000psi for a pressure test. I'll shoot it through the chrony tomorrow.
I was able to get 5 inches of plenum. that is the maximum because of the TKO gets in the way. The gun is barrel heavy but not bad. Once I put the boys stock it should balance nicely
I cut the original disco stock for testing purposes. If I like the turn out I'll fit the boyds stock
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #15 on:
July 09, 2013, 04:54:21 PM »
Chrony Results.
I started at the same number of turns in the RVA. I lost about 30fps. Before bottle 910 - After 870.
One turn in the RVA put me at 900. My short heavy spring is almost maxed out so I might switch it for the full heavy spring.
here are the number:
899
901
900
905
903
-------
903
903
901
903
902
------
902
902
900
905
903
-----
902
901
902
900
903
-----
901
899
901
902
902
-----
899
900
900
901
901
I could not ask for more. I was shooting at 18 yards and accuracy was same hole. if I did my part. I was not being careful.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that it is half as quiet
STRING TOTAL FPE 980.72
STRING TOTAL CU IN USED AT 1 BAR 910.34
STRING EFFICIENCY (FPE/Cubic inch at 1 Bar) 1.08
Average FPE 32.69
High Speed 905.00
Low Speed 899.00
Extreme Spread 6 (0.67%)
Average Speed 901.77
Standard Deviation 1.70
«
Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:10:53 PM by Rdsail
»
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
PakProtector
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 2890
yes
Real Name: Douglas
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #16 on:
July 09, 2013, 05:20:49 PM »
That flippin Rocks! man. So how many more shots will it do on a fill? I see 30 listed and there is no tail off at low bottle pressure.
cheers,
Douglas
Logged
Ann Arbor, MI, USA
My most valuable friends are the ones who will tell me I am wrong.
More valuable still are the ones who go to the trouble of making me see it.
Rdsail
Expert
Posts: 1571
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #17 on:
July 09, 2013, 05:27:50 PM »
It was hard to read the gauge due to that it is so small but Roughly I took 45 shots and It used between 700 and 800 psi. So guestimating it will be between 60 to 70 shots
Logged
Richmond, VA
-----------
.177 Air Arms S400 MPR FT - 11.5 FPE - Sightron 10-50 ft
.22 Disco: BNM Breech - 22 ci 3000 Bottle Reg 1600 - 31 FPE- Hawke SW 8-32x56
Syn Brod .25 - 110fpe capable - Tuned for 85 FPE - Hawke Eclipse 6-24x50
PakProtector
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 2890
yes
Real Name: Douglas
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #18 on:
July 09, 2013, 06:27:50 PM »
45 shots on 7-800 psi, looks like 75-80 on 1400 psi if you go 3k to 1k6...plus you can probably tailor the valve and hammer to hit its sweet spot at 1k5 and run 90 shots as it comes off reg.that is bloody stupendous IMO...lol
cheers,
Douglas
Logged
Ann Arbor, MI, USA
My most valuable friends are the ones who will tell me I am wrong.
More valuable still are the ones who go to the trouble of making me see it.
Ribbonstone
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 12030
Re: Idea search to bottle a disc
«
Reply #19 on:
July 09, 2013, 07:32:59 PM »
Nice!! Good numbers.
Liked the idea of this project. Have not HPA'ed a PCP rated tube, so have stayed in the lower end of the regulator pressure range (850/1000) with Corsmans and Qb's, but it's the same idea: lots of consistent shots.
Logged
Louisiana
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Idea search to bottle a disc