Beeman P17 and XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.



Author Topic: Beeman P17 and XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.  (Read 20875 times)

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #100 on: September 01, 2013, 11:10:45 AM »
I haven't opened up anything more than the grip, but so far:

Far crisper and accurate molding
Slightly different cosmetics (see pic... look at "mag release" location, and edges of finger grooves)
Clipped pin in rear (no set screw in valve body)
Better quality pins, with 2 more under grip
Cleaner stampings of lock parts
Cleaner castings with different plating
Smaller screw heads in barrel retainer

The plastic feels firmer and grippier... but I can't say if it's much different until I cut it. It has a less slippery (greasy?) look.

It's the perfect mold matching I'm thrilled about. The entire center seam is smooth, and the trigger guard serrations are literally perfect (takes a while to mill those straight). This is the biggest time saver.


Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2013, 03:49:38 PM »
I may have seriously underestimated these gun's potential.

14.3gr CPHP.

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #102 on: September 05, 2013, 08:43:22 PM »
Was messing with the 120, and saw something interesting... a seam. The pistons are 2 piece!

The threads are very coarse, but if you're careful, you can adjust for max compression without jamming and bending the pivot pin. Stuffing... without a lathe!

I'll be deepening the rod's hole just a bit, so I can reduce compression at will. The gummy stuff they used to lock the parts will be replaced with a set screw.

It's like dating identical twins... it isn't the similarities that are most interesting.  ;)

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #103 on: September 05, 2013, 09:27:11 PM »
That was almost too easy.

Offline BillK

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2013, 10:29:04 PM »
So,  you get a pistol with a power adjuster.  Pretty cool.  Nice work on the set screw.
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Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #105 on: September 05, 2013, 10:35:53 PM »
Thanks, Bill. I'm having a lot of fun with these... so much potential.

Exposed rod shoulder shows the difference in length between easy to cock (child's play), and full compression (shown). Hard numbers soon...

Offline 45Man

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #106 on: September 05, 2013, 10:44:01 PM »
From the pic of the Xisico XSP 120d,

the only difference I can see from my P17, is the Beeman P17 molding on the side.  Fake slide stop looks a bit smaller on the XSP 120d.


Mine opens a whole lot further than the Xisico XSP 120d you show.  Angle measures 155deg.  Do you actually get enough compression at that reduced stroke?

My red dot really stiffens up the slide so there is no flex at all.  The dovetail mounts & tube have turned it into an H-beam.

Maybe the P17's come from more than one factory in China?

Pics on Pyramid now show FO sights.


BTW, how much does the Xisico XSP 120d cost?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 05:53:45 PM by 45Man »
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Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #107 on: September 05, 2013, 11:28:26 PM »
There are a lot of little differences, but most can't be seen without both in hand.

I didn't open the 120 all the way for that pic. They are the same, all I've done is make the last couple mm of piston travel adjustable.

I paid MM $55 shipped. Comes with.177 and .22 barrels.

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2013, 01:11:16 AM »
"Maybe the P17's come from more than one factory in China?" I don't know, but would like to know all I can about the history of all the variants of this design.

Chrony #s (.22 CPHP), with the compression set so that after firing, the upper opens with a bit of spring. Preloaded... max before bending pin: L 305.4, H 323.3, Av 312.0, ES 17.85. Not bad.

With the comp turned down as far as the shoulder allows, it runs at around 275. This parallels BobH's experience... an easy cocking gun doesn't cost a lot of speed.

Also as he found, the CPHPs fit 120s very tightly. My fingertips hurt, and I have 1 pellet that even the head wouldn't go in. I'm going to polish it, but as the Crosmans are fat, I'm betting many pellets will fit beautifully.

Still quite happy with this gun.

Offline Plinkster68

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2013, 09:13:21 AM »
Love the mods, very nice work, keep them coming.......
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Offline Bob H.

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2013, 11:05:52 PM »


Also as he found, the CPHPs fit 120s very tightly. My fingertips hurt, and I have 1 pellet that even the head wouldn't go in. I'm going to polish it, but as the Crosmans are fat, I'm betting many pellets will fit beautifully.

Still quite happy with this gun.


Eric,
I put the 120 on paper today, I think it has a lot of potential. I lightly radiused the chamber using the lathe and 220 sand paper.  I was pleased with the groups.  I'm in the process of making an "L" shaper seating tool out of nylon.  I chose nylon because I had some on hand.  The chamber is still tight, but that may be a good thing.  I will experiment before I open it up more.

Already, I have a preference for the 120 over a stock 2240, better sights and a better trigger.

BobH.
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Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #111 on: September 07, 2013, 12:03:45 AM »
Thanks, Plinkster... you can bet there is more to come.  ;D

Bob, I agree... on all counts. The Crosman comes in at the same price, but requires a lot more be spent to come close to the trigger quality. Getting both calibers is just icing. If I had a $75 budget to rope in a new shooter, I'd hit Walmart for a tin of pellets, some lube and a pair of safety glasses... and send the rest to Mike. No question.

I haven't leaded up my 120 yet, but will soon. Have you noticed how prominent the lands are on the .22 barrels? Given the tight barrel, this thing is begging to be lapped into a real target piece. I'm amazed at how much a guy can do to these without spending anything more.

When more guys get to try these in .22, I'm betting my enthusiasm won't be quite so puzzling. The foot long is @ 4.8FPE (about to lose the "F" rating), and there is a lot you can do with that in the real world. With lowered compression, they are a blast as a gallery gun/trainer. I'm leaving mine at minimum for now.

Always ready to compare notes with you, Bob.  8)

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #112 on: September 07, 2013, 02:30:48 AM »
Here's a look at the inside. A few differences... also note the lightly engraved "WARING" . The pins are better, and a much better fit. The little twist I always put in the small spring's "L" was already done to this one.

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2013, 11:27:36 PM »
Ran about 100 through the 120, and then chambered it to be somewhat stiff with CPHP, crowned it, and put a target trigger job on it. Before and 1st after... @5. Flyer at left was just me spazzin', but the rest were well shot.

I highly recommend a good crowning, right out of the box. I have plenty of feet of good .22 barrel here, and won't be lapping this one, but I haven't seen this good a candidate in a stock gun in a very long time. A progressive lap would leave this tight barrel with a significant choke.

Another example of how careful labor nets you things with these, that money can't even buy with many guns.

Offline althawk

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2013, 11:42:52 PM »
OK... so far

Beeman P17 /  Xisico XSP 120D /  HDS9 / WMN Mod. S 9 / Beeman P3 / Weihrauch HW40    [clone, clone, clone, clone, re-brand, original]

Is what I have for the models/variations. Should I add the HW 75 as an all-metal version or the prototype for the composite pistol?
http://www.muzzle.de/N3/Druckluft/Weihrauch_HW_75/weihrauch_hw_75.html

LoL at the "WARING" almost as bad as "Made in Hina"...
Other differences, correct me if i'm wrong, is that the XSP 120 doesn't have the dimples on the grip?
Kind of like the WMN Mod. S 9 (a 2010 variant that was/is available in germany)?


http://www.muzzle.de/N7/Druckluft/Marksman_2004_Deluxe/marksman_2004_deluxe.html
http://www.waffen-naunin.de/product_info.php/info/p105_Luftpistole-Mod--S9-Kal--4-5-mm.html
(59.95 euro is about $79 USD)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:11:54 AM by althawk »
3x 'Beeman' P17's (aka HDS9, Weifang Huadong Air Rifle Co.)
Daisy Powerline 850 - + 4x32 scope. Very accurate
Benjamin 392 - (needs a williams peep sight) accurate
Benjamin HB22
Benjamin NP Pistol
Benjamin 262
Sheridan Blue Streak (1964) - estate sale rescue. Very accurate
Sheridan C9 (1991?)
Crosman 2100 - Cheapest & least troublesome
Crosman 2289G - NEW
Crosman 1077
Crosman 1322 - w/ 1399
Crosman 1377 - My 1st Airgun
Crosman Mk II
Daisy 'Limited Edition' 880 - Metal receiver

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #115 on: September 08, 2013, 11:58:52 PM »
Thanks!

There is no doubt the 75 is a blood relative. I think yes.

You are correct, in fact the 120 shares the clipped rear pin, and the crisp contours with the S9 as well... maybe more inside.

Your info is most appreciated!  ;D

Offline althawk

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2013, 12:26:57 AM »
It does look like more attention was taken to the plastic on these newer pistols.

Hypothetical Timeline:
1989 - 1990s : HW 75 / Beeman P2
1998? : HW 40 / Beeman P3
2004-2006 : Marksman 2004 enters production
            Main Quality Control Issues: O-rings getting eaten up by the sharp piston air inlet hole.
                                                          Plastic frame flex problems.

            Consumers are skeptical of cheap looking clone.
            Other consumers buy, provide product testing, realize hey this things pretty neat once you get a good one.

2006 - 2012: Beeman P17 / WMN Mod. S 9
           Name changes to P17 (initially a sticker, eventually becomes molded into plastic)
           '09-'10 : Factory addresses the air inlet hole problem, ships these fixed pistols in a combo pack with a cheap/junk red dot.
           Walmart buys/sells all the old stock Marksman/Beeman p17's stand alone pistols.
           Main Quality Control Issues: Stock O-rings are junk.
                                                        Trigger stampings.

          Consumers complain that cheap plasticy gun worked well for 0-50 shots then failed.
          Other consumers read Derrick's wonderful blog, buy o-rings & white lithium grease, fixed the problem and had fun for 50+ shots.
          http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-beeman-p17-overhaul-finale.html

2013: Xisico XSP 120D
          Fiber Optics added to Beeman P17
          Better molding or attention to plastic in factory.
          Main Quality Control Issues :  XSP 120D : Someone forgot to run "waring" by legal.

          Consumers see fiber optics, buy, then complain about accuracy.
          Other consumers try out optics, find accuracy, research known mods.
         

I haven't seen a lot of reports of piston o-rings getting 'eaten' by the sharp inlet hole on newer models, so I am assuming that the factory(s) or better informed consumers are addressing the issue.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 01:25:43 AM by althawk »
3x 'Beeman' P17's (aka HDS9, Weifang Huadong Air Rifle Co.)
Daisy Powerline 850 - + 4x32 scope. Very accurate
Benjamin 392 - (needs a williams peep sight) accurate
Benjamin HB22
Benjamin NP Pistol
Benjamin 262
Sheridan Blue Streak (1964) - estate sale rescue. Very accurate
Sheridan C9 (1991?)
Crosman 2100 - Cheapest & least troublesome
Crosman 2289G - NEW
Crosman 1077
Crosman 1322 - w/ 1399
Crosman 1377 - My 1st Airgun
Crosman Mk II
Daisy 'Limited Edition' 880 - Metal receiver

Offline althawk

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2013, 01:36:06 AM »
Was re-reading derrick's blog, and looking at the trigger parts, (circa 2009):


are they painting them now? or using some oxide coating on them? They certainly look less rough.

Just looking at these two pics, at their full size, you can really see some of the minute changes to the plastic mold.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bqGQAyE5rgE/SaBWk9DWkGI/AAAAAAAAAQw/CKJoZDZ_Acs/s1600-h/P2120092.JPG
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=49115.0;attach=68329;image
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 01:55:50 AM by althawk »
3x 'Beeman' P17's (aka HDS9, Weifang Huadong Air Rifle Co.)
Daisy Powerline 850 - + 4x32 scope. Very accurate
Benjamin 392 - (needs a williams peep sight) accurate
Benjamin HB22
Benjamin NP Pistol
Benjamin 262
Sheridan Blue Streak (1964) - estate sale rescue. Very accurate
Sheridan C9 (1991?)
Crosman 2100 - Cheapest & least troublesome
Crosman 2289G - NEW
Crosman 1077
Crosman 1322 - w/ 1399
Crosman 1377 - My 1st Airgun
Crosman Mk II
Daisy 'Limited Edition' 880 - Metal receiver

Offline stalwart

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Re: Beeman P17 + XSP 120D... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2013, 02:01:38 AM »
It's a coating. Very effective, and holds lube well. I didn't get a pic of the edges of the stampings, but they have much smaller imperfections in them. They break in quicker, and are easier to polish.

Well done posts ^.  8)

Offline Plinkster68

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Re: Beeman P17... Next level builds/mods.
« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2013, 11:03:00 AM »
I couldn't resist... these things are like Legos. What do you all think?

I really like the way the tactical pistol looks and handles, and the target rig has a similar (and much preferred by me) nose heavy balance. These are the final configurations for a while, I think.

Waiting on UPS like a little kid... clock watching.  ::) ;D

The gun in the picture without the red dot I'm guessing is the target gun, what is the length of the barrel? and how much is sticking out the front of the gun? reminds me of the Alecto Ultra.... also read you ported one of the guns to 4mm could you tell any difference by doing that? Seen elsewhere instead of adding to the piston to build up compression he dropped in an O-ring to do it, have you tried that on any of your pistols? if so which seems to work the best?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 11:27:25 AM by Plinkster68 »
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