realistic 2240 power expectations



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Offline joklak

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realistic 2240 power expectations
« on: June 24, 2013, 12:36:57 AM »
I have seen some people claim they can get over 1000fps out of a modded 2240.  I dont have a chrony but I have done some valve mods and bolt mods and I know that it does not have nearly as much power as my .22 npss which I'm pretty sure is not shooting 1000fps so I was just wondering what kind of power can I really expect from a modded 2240?
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Offline UCChris

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 12:46:43 AM »
I have seen some people claim they can get over 1000fps out of a modded 2240.  I dont have a chrony but I have done some valve mods and bolt mods and I know that it does not have nearly as much power as my .22 npss which I'm pretty sure is not shooting 1000fps so I was just wondering what kind of power can I really expect from a modded 2240?

I know there is a guy here on GTA that is slinging lead at 800ish fps with a modded 2240.
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Offline grumpy

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 06:36:07 AM »
Its not hard to get 20 fpe with a 2240. Course thats probably not gonna happen without an HPA conversion. Personally my best power from a 22xx gun was about 28 fpe. I have know folks to get in the mid 40 fpe range, but were talking about serious modifying.
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Offline joklak

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 08:53:54 AM »
Its not hard to get 20 fpe with a 2240. Course thats probably not gonna happen without an HPA conversion. Personally my best power from a 22xx gun was about 28 fpe. I have know folks to get in the mid 40 fpe range, but were talking about serious modifying.

I was hoping to get between 16-18 fpe.  I figure that should be pretty good for most of the critters that come into my back yard.   So far  I have angled the valve port, cut a few of the threaeds off of the valve, recontoured the flats spots on the valve needle, made an extended bolt probe and installed a 14.5" barrel.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 09:18:34 AM by joklak »
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Offline Flyboy

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 10:07:35 AM »
Are you guys serious? When looking at modified 2250s I thought getting around 11.5 fpe was pushing the thing to its absolute limits (and not just because it's a tad under the UK legal limit), considering it's already (but only) between 6-8 fpe as standard. You're seriously saying that a 5-5.5 fpe pistol can be taken up to 40+ fpe!?

Or have I once again been bitten by the U.S. vs UK power limits conflict? If so, what is the standard power of a stock 2240 and 2250, in the U.S.?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 10:11:52 AM by Flyboy »
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Offline JBird

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 10:53:00 AM »
15 FPE is easy with a few mods.  I've got a 2240 with a 12" barrel, HiPac conversion, a few simple valve mods and heavier hammer spring and it's at 15 FPE.  My 2400 with the exact same mods with an 18" barrel is at 20 FPE and with the 24" barrel it was right at 25 FPE.  With HPA barrel length gets you more energy than just about any other mod. 
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2013, 11:08:47 AM »
I agree. I certainly an not hollering foul. But to boost power EIGHT FOLD is something I would need to see to believe. I would have to say if done the look would be as far from a 2240 hand gun as one could possible get.  Not Tring to rustle any feathers. But I look at it this way, someone says they want a bit more power from a 1976 Pinto and someone else
Answers I got 800 horse and sub 10 sec quarter mile times from mine. That's just not a realistic expectation for most people. ;) Doable... Sure with enough time money and expertise. Will the avg guy do it? Heck no! ;)

I'm surely no expert, but a better bolt probe, boss valve, playing with springs a bit and a little longer barrel. (Assuming your wanting a pistol as you started with a 2240 NOT a 2260) I would say about 15/16 fpe would be about what you would see. And that's still quite a boost for the 5/6 fpe it is stock!

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Offline Hallucinosis

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2013, 05:39:38 PM »
At those power levels it's more about tuning for fun as a challenge than the practicality of the matter; it's like taking a $100-125 Mosin-Nagant and modifying it until it reaches the point where it's an accurate target rifle, when it would be cheaper, easier, and faster to just buy a better and more modern off-the-shelf rifle that already has a good trigger, floated barrel, scope mounts, etc. It's really a labor of love and not something that's for everyone, but it really seems like the point is to overcome the challenge of getting so much out of the platform. Compared to car tuning, it's a cheap hobby.

I got into modifying my Crosman 1377 because I wanted more out of it. I ended up spending enough on it that I don't really want to think about that, but nowhere near as much time, money, and energy as others have invested in their setups. That said, I had a lot of fun doing it and learned some things, so it was worth it.

I work as a SSE and it feels a lot like code optimization. It's a rewarding experience for me.
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Offline grumpy

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 06:24:38 PM »
Its not hard to increase power to the levels i mentioned. 20 fpe is simple with a barrel, valve and breech/bolt swap. Slap a hipac on about 1500 ish psi and you should be somewhere between 15-20 fpe. A power adjuster will make tuning fairly easy.

I would probably called foul on 30-40 fpe claims to, until I went over to the CAPOF forum. Those guys are wizards at what they can do with the lowely 22XX gun.

For the record I have modded no less then 20 of these guns, its great fun.

This one I cal Frankengun. I have more cash in it then id like to admit, but then again the fun of it was building MY gun :)
Currently its setup to get about 130 shots at roughly 13 fpe.


This is another one of my contraptions.



This was a 2240 that I added an mrod trigger, 24" barrel, TKO, Boss valve. You cannot see it in this pic but its powered by a Hipac at about 1800 PSI. She shot at about 28 fpe and would regularly shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards.


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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2013, 06:34:28 PM »
The biggest limit with a 2240 is barrel length, the second biggest limit is CO2.... Put a 24" barrel on it, a few mods, run it on HPA, and it becomes a Disco.... I have modded a Disco to 53 FPE in .22 cal, over 100 FPE in .25 cal, and 133 FPE in 9mm.... If you're talking a shorter barrel and leaving it on CO2, then give your head a shake, it ain't gonna happen....

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Offline silent_airman

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2013, 06:42:38 PM »
Wow, you guys are way over my head. I just like shooting small holes in paper and murdering soda cans.  ::)
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2013, 06:46:06 PM »
The biggest limit with a 2240 is barrel length, the second biggest limit is CO2.... Put a 24" barrel on it, a few mods, run it on HPA, and it becomes a Disco.... I have modded a Disco to 53 FPE in .22 cal, over 100 FPE in .25 cal, and 133 FPE in 9mm.... If you're talking a shorter barrel and leaving it on CO2, then give your head a shake, it ain't gonna happen....

Bob


  I would LOVE to read about the 22 disco mods... do you have any posts about it?

CW
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 06:47:53 PM by cwlongshot »
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Offline cherokeesteve

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 08:12:37 PM »
Its not hard to increase power to the levels i mentioned. 20 fpe is simple with a barrel, valve and breech/bolt swap. Slap a hipac on about 1500 ish psi and you should be somewhere between 15-20 fpe. A power adjuster will make tuning fairly easy.

I would probably called foul on 30-40 fpe claims to, until I went over to the CAPOF forum. Those guys are wizards at what they can do with the lowely 22XX gun.

For the record I have modded no less then 20 of these guns, its great fun.

This one I cal Frankengun. I have more cash in it then id like to admit, but then again the fun of it was building MY gun :)
Currently its setup to get about 130 shots at roughly 13 fpe.


This is another one of my contraptions.



This was a 2240 that I added an mrod trigger, 24" barrel, TKO, Boss valve. You cannot see it in this pic but its powered by a Hipac at about 1800 PSI. She shot at about 28 fpe and would regularly shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards.


Dave



Wow, real beauties! Those power numbers are beyond impressive.  Any chance for a "Son of Frankengun"?
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Offline Flyboy

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 06:43:58 AM »
So I guess with a HiPac conversion you can comfortably use a more powerful hammer spring as there's no valve pin having to ram into a CO2 cartridge and potentially get stuck? What relationship does the hammer even have with a HiPac after conversion? How does it all work exactly?

Another thing, what caliber and what grain of pellet are you guys using to get such high foot-poundage out of your guns? You know I used to think that FPE was the primary calculation of power in airguns, but have since come to think that in fact muzzle velocity and pellet grain are the primary factors, and FPE is kind of just like a by-product that is the result of those two properties working in cohesion.
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Offline grumpy

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 09:39:53 AM »
For all of my guns I keep caliber to .22. I know several who went as big as .25
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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 10:18:06 AM »
So I guess with a HiPac conversion you can comfortably use a more powerful hammer spring as there's no valve pin having to ram into a CO2 cartridge and potentially get stuck? What relationship does the hammer even have with a HiPac after conversion? How does it all work exactly?

Another thing, what caliber and what grain of pellet are you guys using to get such high foot-poundage out of your guns? You know I used to think that FPE was the primary calculation of power in airguns, but have since come to think that in fact muzzle velocity and pellet grain are the primary factors, and FPE is kind of just like a by-product that is the result of those two properties working in cohesion.

That's exactly what FPE is.  In my opinion, FPS is important.  Too low (like the Canadian limit of 500 fps) and you've got a rainbow trajectory that makes hitting way out there quite a feat. FPS at a reasonable level gives you a relatively flat shooting rifle that allows you to "reach out and touch something".  If you can keep the FPS up while launching a heavier pellet then you're also going to be able to touch something effectively.  There are those who favor light pellets to keep the FPS up to astonishing levels. But a light pellet won't carry as far as a heavy one since it doesn't have the mass to keep up the momentum,  This is why I'm fascinated with the Korean and Turkish guns.  They get high velocity out of regular pellets - and can get decent velocity out of cast projectiles.  This allows you to have a flat (relatively) trajectory while transmitting amazing power at the target.  FPE doesn't tell as much (to my mind) as FPS and pellet weight.  Theoretically you can drive a 7 grain pellet to 1,134.2 FPS and obtain 20 FPE.  1,035.37 fps will give you the same FPE from an 8.4 grain pellet. Now let's reach up a bit higher for 30 FPE and you'll drive the same 8.4 gr pellet to 1,268.07 and 1,389.1 with the 7 grain.  At those speeds you can pretty much kiss accuracy goodbye.  If you kick the pellet weight up to 15 grains, however, you only have to drive it to 948.94 to reach 30 FPE.  You've got the FPE while keeping your projectile within the generally accepted velocity for accuracy.  A Canadian would have to launch a 55 grain projectile at 495.57 to reach 30 FPE and stay under their 500 FPS velocity for a non PAL rifle.  Of course, the minute they test that rifle with a light pellet - he's busted for having an illegal weapon.


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Offline Flyboy

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 10:43:22 AM »
That's exactly what FPE is.  In my opinion, FPS is important.  Too low (like the Canadian limit of 500 fps) and you've got a rainbow trajectory that makes hitting way out there quite a feat. FPS at a reasonable level gives you a relatively flat shooting rifle that allows you to "reach out and touch something".  If you can keep the FPS up while launching a heavier pellet then you're also going to be able to touch something effectively.  There are those who favor light pellets to keep the FPS up to astonishing levels. But a light pellet won't carry as far as a heavy one since it doesn't have the mass to keep up the momentum,  This is why I'm fascinated with the Korean and Turkish guns.  They get high velocity out of regular pellets - and can get decent velocity out of cast projectiles.  This allows you to have a flat (relatively) trajectory while transmitting amazing power at the target.  FPE doesn't tell as much (to my mind) as FPS and pellet weight.  Theoretically you can drive a 7 grain pellet to 1,134.2 FPS and obtain 20 FPE.  1,035.37 fps will give you the same FPE from an 8.4 grain pellet. Now let's reach up a bit higher for 30 FPE and you'll drive the same 8.4 gr pellet to 1,268.07 and 1,389.1 with the 7 grain.  At those speeds you can pretty much kiss accuracy goodbye.  If you kick the pellet weight up to 15 grains, however, you only have to drive it to 948.94 to reach 30 FPE.  You've got the FPE while keeping your projectile within the generally accepted velocity for accuracy.  A Canadian would have to launch a 55 grain projectile at 495.57 to reach 30 FPE and stay under their 500 FPS velocity for a non PAL rifle.  Of course, the minute they test that rifle with a light pellet - he's busted for having an illegal weapon.

Here in the UK all air rifles are measured by ft. lbs. in power. But I have now come to treat any stated figures with caution, as it all depends on what pellet you are using. How can you honestly sell someone a 'legal power' air rifle that is 11.9 ft. lbs. in power (has to be below the actual number of 12), when they could so easily just use a higher grain pellet than whatever those stats were conjured up with, and take it to over the legal limit? At the same time, if you're using a lighter grain pellet, you could kick up a stink for not having anything near 11.9 ft. lbs.

It then gets even more confusing when they detail the power in Joules for replica CO2 pistols and FPS for airsoft guns... all the while being left open for question by the weight of the ammunition you use.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:46:49 AM by Flyboy »
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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 12:15:19 PM »
That's exactly what FPE is.  In my opinion, FPS is important.  Too low (like the Canadian limit of 500 fps) and you've got a rainbow trajectory that makes hitting way out there quite a feat. FPS at a reasonable level gives you a relatively flat shooting rifle that allows you to "reach out and touch something".  If you can keep the FPS up while launching a heavier pellet then you're also going to be able to touch something effectively.  There are those who favor light pellets to keep the FPS up to astonishing levels. But a light pellet won't carry as far as a heavy one since it doesn't have the mass to keep up the momentum,  This is why I'm fascinated with the Korean and Turkish guns.  They get high velocity out of regular pellets - and can get decent velocity out of cast projectiles.  This allows you to have a flat (relatively) trajectory while transmitting amazing power at the target.  FPE doesn't tell as much (to my mind) as FPS and pellet weight.  Theoretically you can drive a 7 grain pellet to 1,134.2 FPS and obtain 20 FPE.  1,035.37 fps will give you the same FPE from an 8.4 grain pellet. Now let's reach up a bit higher for 30 FPE and you'll drive the same 8.4 gr pellet to 1,268.07 and 1,389.1 with the 7 grain.  At those speeds you can pretty much kiss accuracy goodbye.  If you kick the pellet weight up to 15 grains, however, you only have to drive it to 948.94 to reach 30 FPE.  You've got the FPE while keeping your projectile within the generally accepted velocity for accuracy.  A Canadian would have to launch a 55 grain projectile at 495.57 to reach 30 FPE and stay under their 500 FPS velocity for a non PAL rifle.  Of course, the minute they test that rifle with a light pellet - he's busted for having an illegal weapon.

Here in the UK all air rifles are measured by ft. lbs. in power. But I have now come to treat any stated figures with caution, as it all depends on what pellet you are using. How can you honestly sell someone a 'legal power' air rifle that is 11.9 ft. lbs. in power (has to be below the actual number of 12), when they could so easily just use a higher grain pellet than whatever those stats were conjured up with, and take it to over the legal limit? At the same time, if you're using a lighter grain pellet, you could kick up a stink for not having anything near 11.9 ft. lbs.

It then gets even more confusing when they detail the power in Joules for replica CO2 pistols and FPS for airsoft guns... all the while being left open for question by the weight of the ammunition you use.

SO far, we have no such limits.  The limits imposed are that we are no longer allowed to import anything without going through a license importer.  And they all jack prices up a HUGE percent.  A 2240 here, for example, runs about $150 US dollars, give or take.  That's only three times the US price, approximately.  Any shooting sport here is expensive, but air guns are still the affordable route compared to firearms. 
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Offline mtsheron70

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 01:46:03 PM »
joklak-

I look to get a CC 2300KT and put in a Crooked Barn (Jim Giles) Boss Valve which according to Jim will give you 30% more power on average.  So if you take the claimed 460 fps and get 30% more you would be at 598 fps.  But I am sure that is with a light pellet.  I wish they would state the pellet weights used on these ratings.

So these numbers I am sure will vary.  But something to work with of course.

Offline joklak

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Re: realistic 2240 power expectations
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 02:18:44 PM »
I appreciate all of the info.  I would like to stick with the 12 gram co2 because I am going to get a .25 marauder soon.  What I want to do is have a nice short gun for pest control that wont stick way out of the window for everyone to see. I also was hoping to get enough power to take head shots on racoons if I need to.  I guess if it dont work I will make a shooting stick so I dont have to put a longer gun out the window.
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