Lubing my R9 with Krytox GPL205...my first impressions.

[nced]

Did a shooting session Thursday morning and the Krytox 205 stuff is working very well!

The gun cocks smoother than when I was using molly paste, and the R9 is shooting well also. It was pretty windy here in Rougemont, NC so I didn't do any "formal" accuracy testing (LOL, how formal can sittin' on a bucket usin' cross sticks be?), but I did shoot a few groups just to get an idea. Here are a few pics shot in the variable wind, notice that the "up & down" pellet hits were pretty good for the 50 yard shots, however the CPLs drifted some "left & right"..........

A 7 shot group with a pretty large horizontal spread (target square is 1" with a 1/8" grid and 1/4" bull).


The next 50 yard target I shot was a Gamo field target with full size kill zone. This target was sprayed with cheap paint after shooting the group and you can see the "shadow" of the group on the paddle.....notice that the group pretty much mimics the paper target group.


Here is my 30 yard Gamo target with a home made reducer showing a few hits on the paddle at my "zero range".


A LOT more shots were taken while zeroing the scope and just plain plinking than shown on the targets! By the way, I lubed EVERYTHING with the Krytox including the new style R9 cocking shoe that rides the receiver tube instead of a piston liner, the barrel detent, barrel pivot bolt, barrel shims, spring guide and spring as well as the piston and piston seal. When I fit a Delrin spring guide to my spring (an old 34 coil .120 wire Maccari spring) I like a TIGHT fit, so when I would push the spring on my guide lubed with "heavy tar" the spring would kinda "grab a bit, release, grab a bit, release" till the guide was seated. After stripping all lubes prior to the "all Krytox lube" with and relubing with Krytox GPL205 the first thing I noticed was no "spring grabbin' & releasing" when pushing the spring on the guide. Last night I was shooting 18 yards upstairs in my house and the cocking/shot cycle is getting even smoother, plus I was shooting consistent "ragged one hole groups" at that distance.

For well over a decade I've been running oring sealed piston caps in my HW springers using molly paste (recently, dry graphite powder), but I'm pleased that I now have a non-dieseling lube (the reason for my recent use of using dry graphite) that's even recommended for oring lubing........yet it can be used for all my springer lubing! With molly paste or dry graphite piston seal lube I would use heavy tar for all other lubing such as cocking shoe, spring and guide, barrel pivot bolt, etc.....but it seems like I've found a "one lube fits all"! 

After reassembling the R9 I was impressed by smooth cocking action and barrel latch-up! When using molly paste I had a more noticeable "sliding sound" from the sliding piston and cocking shoe, especially when the molly paste was first applied. Also, and after not too many cocking cycles the barrel detent seemed like the molly was wearing thin, however (so far) the Krytox stuff seems to be continuously "greasing" the detent when latching the barrel.

There was no HINT of dieseling with Krytox 205 (a real PLUS for me)!! With the molly paste I would burnish it in the receiver tube and very carefully wipe it around the seal taking great care not to get it on the face of the piston.....yet I would still get an occasional whiff of "Greyhound bus stop smell". When lubing with the Krytox I didn't take the extreme care applying it that I did with the molly paste (I didn't deliberately put it on the face of the piston), however there was NO sign dieseling from the first shot!

As a side note......I applied the stuff with bare fingers (Dupont claims ingredients are innert unless heated over 500F) and I didn't have any unusual reactions EXCEPT.......this invisible stuff WON'T wash away with soap and water. Since applying the Krytox I've taken several showers, washed my hands many times during the days since, yet my fingers and finger nails are still slippery! I do notice that after three days of showers and hand washing the fingers are less slippery but still detectable.

Anywhoo.....I bought and used the GPL205 because another poster mentioned it, McMaster Carr had it, and there was no black stuff, there may be better formulations for springer use, but SO FAR the "205 stuff" is everything I've been looking for as a springer lube! Pretty neat stuff and I truly HOPE that it continues living up to it's billing! LOL....I might even spend $48.20 and buy a 2oz container of the stuff! 

Any followup from other users concerning actually using other formulations is appreciated!



 
    

[OleTomCat]

Ok, subscribing...

[Dockey 454]

Please keep us posted on how this lube works in the long run.

[QuigleyUpYonder]

Ed, I'm glad you like my lube!

Hate to say I told you so, but it's a no-brainer. Ha!

When I recently discovered that everyone was still using 60's based Moly lubes I was dumbfounded, quite frankly. It's ironic because Krytox has been around since circa 1960, albeit a little rare outside of aerospace contractors/industry. As you are discovering, you can use it on EVERYTHING.

 

If others are interesting in what else I've shared about using Krytox, they can read about it HERE.



Now you're curious about the other formulas? 
I've used a few of them.
If your pistons are buttoned, as are nearly all of mine, then straight Krytox is fine.
The moly and the boron nitride based ones look good on paper when you're worried about a little extra protection? from metal to metal contact, but I haven't been able to tell any difference in the guns I've used it in. My thoughts are, that to get a noticeable "improvement" would require something MUCH more strenuous than a BB gun can deliver! As mentioned, these formulas are harder to find in small quantities. 2 centavos worth.


Since we are now trying to get into the 21st Century (Ha!), I'll go ahead and gore another Ox.
I got back into BB guns because I needed/wanted something with a little more reach/power than my RWS 350 & 54. and was very curious about these newfangled "Nitro Pistons" I had seen advertised. Well, after owning and playing/experimenting on my Trail NP XL, I can tell you that I'll never be fooling around with a metal coil spring again! Everything I shoot on a regular basis will be using commercially available gas rams/die springs. The up sides are just too numerous and the technology is well founded/tested/reliable. I already have Nitrogen in the shop so custom pressurization is so easy its another no-brainer. 2 more centavos and a yeehaww 

[Protos]

You wouldn't have any before and after chrony numbers would you ?

I am going to take the plunge as well.

What did you pay for shipping from McMaster Carr ?

[nced]

You wouldn't have any before and after chrony numbers would you ?

I am going to take the plunge as well.

What did you pay for shipping from McMaster Carr ?

Sorry, I don't concern myself with chrony numbers except as for diagnostic purposes since I easily get my desired velocity using an old 33 active coils of .120 wire Maccari spring with little spacing.

In the past years with my molly paste (and most recently dry graphite powder) lubed .177 R9 I've always used a CPL velocity of 910fps (oring sealed) because the poi at this velocity matched well with the 4-16 Elite 4200 duplex reticuled scope that I used for years before something came loose inside and it couldn't be repaired. Since then I've used a 4-12 Vortex Diamondback scope with "dots on the cross hair" so I've reduced the CPL velocity to around 870fps so the "dots" line up with the poi.

Anywhoo.......my main concern with ANY lube/piston sealing method is poi stability through daily temperature shifts of 30+ degrees in the early spring/late fall. I have been testing the resistance to temperature induced VELOCITY testing here in NC by leaving the gun on an unheated sun room over night in low 30 degree temps and then comparing them to the velocity I got on the day I shot the targets for my original post which had a temp in the high 50s. By the way on that day the chrony showed a CPL velocity of 870fps from the .177 R9.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a collation of posts I made on the Dianawerk Forum. Initially I was TRYING to do a 12fpe tune to my .177 R9 but that won't happen with the current 33 coils of .120 wire spring and oring sealed piston cap in the .177 R9.
December 25.........
"Yesterday I was getting CPLs @ 840, however today I was shooting (really nice Christmas weather in NC) and the morning velocity was 840fps. After the shooting ended at around 2:00PM I re-chronied the R9 and CPL velocity had risen to 870fps! I'm assuming that the change is due to better distribution of Krytox on the receiver ID that was previously stripped of all lubes with brake cleaner.

I'm going to leave the gun in the sun room tonight (it's an unheated three season room) since the temp is to be about 35F (it was 39F this morning and it's about 55F now) and rechrony the gun in the morning. That way I'll be able to tell if the velocity rise is due to Krytox viscosity change, lube being more completely distributed, or the new oring seating in.

With my current 33 active coils of .120 wire mainspring I can't reduce the preload anymore without removing the top hat which I don't want to do. I do have another spring with 30 active coils of .125 wire that I've been able to reduce the CPL velocity to around 750fps without extra spacing, so perhaps this spring will be a candidate if I find that the velocity increase I got was simply "break-in velocity" instead of temperature shifting.

The great thing about the winter months when there aren't any DIFTA field target matches scheduled is that it's the springer tweaking season! happy.gif"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
December 26.........
"I took a series of shots over the chrony today at about 35 degrees between rain showers and it seems that perhaps the Krytox lube is getting distributed. I'm getting the same velocity I got at the end of my last shooting session when the CPL velocity started at a still too high 830fps for the 12fpe class, but increased to 870fps at the end of the shoot. I didn't know if the velocity rise was due to a minor 20 degree temp rise or more thorough distribution of the Krytox GPL205 lube I'm testing, but I do know that there has been NO dieseling from shot one after stripping and relubing with the Krytox grease.

This morning it was 35degrees (same as the test morning temp) and I had left the R9 in the unheated sun room over night to get it cool. I did a short chrony string at 37 degrees between rain showers and had these readings.......
1st shot.......856fpm
2nd............873
3rd............870
4th............874
5th............870
Then it got too overcast to get a reading......
With the oring sealed piston cap and Krytox GPL205 grease it only took ONE shot to stabilize the velocity at the pre "shooting session level" of 870 fps. It CURRENTLY SEEMS that temperature induced velocity variations with oring/Krytox are minor, but time and perhaps a couple more shooting sessions will tell!

Tonight the temp is supposed to get down to 27 degrees and the R9 is in the unheated sun room so I'll chrony the gun again in the morning when it gets light enough to get a chrony reading.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

December 27.......
As soon as I'm satisfied with the results, and IF the results hold up, I'll be stripping the HW77K of graphite powder and relube with the Krytox.

Test this morning:

I did a final test of temperature induced velocity shifts using Krytox GPL250 grease and here are the results...
Gun was left in an unheated sunroom over night where the night time temps dropped to 26 degrees. When I started the chrony test this morning the temp was 35 degrees, but the gun was colder than that. Here are a few chrony readings of CPLs from the oring sealed .177 R9......
1st........(no reading, low morning light level)
2nd........855
3rd........871 (yep, just like previously, a Krytox lubed and oring sealed R9 only required a couple shots to stabilize velocity)
4th........(no reading, low morning light level)
5th........869
6th........(no reading, low morning light level)
7th........872
8th........865
9th........872
10th.......870

I'm nixing more velocity tests because I've only had temperature induced poi shift in early and late season when there would be a considerable difference between the morning and afternoon temperatures IF I was using a normal parachute seal and molly paste lube. The oring sealed piston cap minimized the poi shift (due to velocity variations I assume) but I wanted to see if the Krytox grease would change the pellet velocity when used in different temperatures. I've been looking for a "one lube for all" to use in my HW springers instead of molly paste for the receiver tube/piston/seal and heavy tar for the spring guide (both which are black staining stuff). Well....the Krytox grease is MUCH cleaner white substance that seems to hold up really well on the gun parts. Since it's recommended as an oring lube the stuff will probably work well with factory piston seals! happy.gif

Anywhoo.....since this mornings 35 degree temp CPL velocities after a couple initial shots were similar to the CPL velocities I had a couple days ago at the end of a shooting session where the temp was 55 degrees I'm satisfied enough with the lack of temperature induced velocity changes with my oring sealed piston caps that I'm willing to try replacing the graphite powder lube used previously to address the same issue. Now it's only a matter of seeing how the Krytox GPL205 holds up over the long haul!

As a side note......with the Krytox GPL205 grease I got ZERO dieseling, even from the first shot after lubing even though it wasn't applied as carefully as I HAD to do with molly paste! I do know from personal experience that if a wad of molly paste accidentally gets in front of a piston seal....IT WELL DETONATE!

[QuigleyUpYonder]

Keep posting Ed, it's great to see the feedback/results!


Since the weather has turned cold (freezing) here I've lost 10 fps from the summer, but I'm pretty sure that is from the loss of pressure in my gas ram (thanks Bob). I can live with that compared to all the "variables" of wire springs and "conventional" lube. I have over 5000 shots on my original tune job (never been opened since) and despite the velocity drop I still get a very consistent E.S. of 6-7 fps over 10 shots with this gun CONSISTENTLY. Also, I always acclimate my guns overnight (or longer) in whatever temps they will be used in. I'm mostly a hunter and by doing this I get NO POI shifts from the temperatures I've shot in. The Krytox is awesome in cold weather and like you are seeing, NO DIESELING. Like I said, it's friggin' impossible. ha!  ..and by simply removing that ONE variable, Krytox is worth every penny! I NEVER liked that variable and was the primary motivation to finding something better than "moly" and other hydrocarbon based lubes. The icing on the cake is the ridiculously low coefficient of friction. Gotta love that for some improved lock time and energy!

[Scotchmo]

nced,

I have tried a number of different o-ring combinations with varied results. The highest performance was a Teflon o-ring with light amounts of Super-Lube. It was very efficient but it was difficult to get the clearances just right and was temperature sensitive. It lasted about 6000 shots before it got out of tolerance. And it would diesel under certain conditions. I also tried an unlubed Teflon o-ring that did not diesel but wore out very fast. After reading your posts, i tried the graphite/Viton combination but it was not near as efficient.

I have been following your recent experiments closely and I just ordered some Krytox and 75 duro Viton o-rings. I'm getting into PCP guns for my 2013 FT plans, but will still be playing/experimenting with piston guns.

Thank you for putting in the extensive research that we can all benefit from. It is time consuming so I may just follow your lead from here on out.

[nced]

"i tried the graphite/Viton combination but it was not near as efficient."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also noticed about a 10fps drop in velocity using the non dieseling graphite powder instead of molly paste, however the consistent poi gained from the graphite lube was a good tradeoff.

Oring sealing is a bit of a hastle because both the cross section size of the oring and the amount of oring "squeeze" affects the output greatly. Years ago I tried some Viton 3/32" cross section orings in my R9 instead of the usual 1/16" cross section rings thinking that the extra thickness would better handle the internal receiver dimensional variations. Well, it did handle variations better, however the mv was simply too "factory like". After that I reverted back to the thinner oring cross section, even though machining the cap for proper squeeze is more tedious. I've also noticed a drop in velocity with orings if the oring squeeze is excessive.

With the switch to the Krytox GPL205 I also switched from the usual 75 durometer Viton orings to one made of plain ole cheap 70 durometer Nitrile (Buna N) and it's been working fine! PERHAPS GPL205 and orings are the best of both worlds.........Nitrile has good abrasion and "taking a set" resistance and the PTFE in the GPL205 is "good for slippery".

A couple side notes.........
Teflon orings take a set really quickly so perhaps your Teflon orings aren't wearing out quickly, they're taking a set from compression and not recovering. I do know that there are Teflon encapsulated silicone orings available that don't take a set as readily because the silicone core maintains the "resilience"  while the Teflon shell provides the low friction and resistance to chemical attack.

Anywhoo......since I normally get MORE than adequate velocity from my oring sealed piston caps using "regular" orings and molly paste or Krytox grease I'm not concerned with "max velocity", only adequate velocity using light wire aftermarket springs. My main concern is simply the quest to maintain a consistent poi at whatever velocity I choose. To date I've tuned my oring sealed .177 R9s to shoot CPLs at around 900fps, but lately I've been playing with 12fpe levels. Problem is that I haven't been able to get my oring sealed velocity that LOW using an oring seal and current 33 active coils of .120 wire spring. LOL....what a nice "problem" to have! 

[nced]

Keep posting Ed, it's great to see the feedback/results!


Since the weather has turned cold (freezing) here I've lost 10 fps from the summer, but I'm pretty sure that is from the loss of pressure in my gas ram (thanks Bob). I can live with that compared to all the "variables" of wire springs and "conventional" lube. I have over 5000 shots on my original tune job (never been opened since) and despite the velocity drop I still get a very consistent E.S. of 6-7 fps over 10 shots with this gun CONSISTENTLY. Also, I always acclimate my guns overnight (or longer) in whatever temps they will be used in. I'm mostly a hunter and by doing this I get NO POI shifts from the temperatures I've shot in. The Krytox is awesome in cold weather and like you are seeing, NO DIESELING. Like I said, it's friggin' impossible. ha!  ..and by simply removing that ONE variable, Krytox is worth every penny! I NEVER liked that variable and was the primary motivation to finding something better than "moly" and other hydrocarbon based lubes. The icing on the cake is the ridiculously low coefficient of friction. Gotta love that for some improved lock time and energy!

I'm planning to also Krytox lube my HW77 after some more testing of the R9. When I do up the "77" I WILL take some before and after chrony readings since it's currently lubed with molly paste on the oring and heavy tar on the spring and spring guide.

As a side note........I've noticed that even SEASONAL atmospheric conditions can vary the velocity by 10fps or so. I normally get higher velocity in the cooler fall season than I get in the warm summer season. I've always thought that this is due to the cooler fall air being denser than the warm summer air. The cooler air is "faster" idea seems to hold up till the temps get really low and the lubes (lubes on the spring as well as the piston seal) change viscosity while the seal changes durometer.

[PakProtector]

Welcome to the late 20th Century Ed. Glad to see another person willing to use the good stuff. I think the tuner crowd is in some sort of competition for 'most conservative' or perhaps 'most stuck to their ways'. The Catholic priesthood is giving them a run for their money...have they admitted they were wrong about Gallileo and Copernicus yet?

I have some fine moly powder, I may try mixin' a small batch of super 2C45, with something like 30% moly by weight to add to the Boron Nitride. Moly is nice stuff for springers, but not when mixed with combustibles.
cheers,
Douglas

[Nikoman]

Welcome to the late 20th Century Ed. Glad to see another person willing to use the good stuff. I think the tuner crowd is in some sort of competition for 'most conservative' or perhaps 'most stuck to their ways'. The Catholic priesthood is giving them a run for their money...have they admitted they were wrong about Gallileo and Copernicus yet?......

[Cloud 9]

So you don't see a need to use the Krytox GPL206 (with Moly) in your gun?

[kevinbrian]

I cannot say that I am qualified to contribute much to this thread except that, I started a thread in the German Gate and Quigleyfrom Down Under was kind enough to turn me on to the Krytox 205 lube in answer to my question about seal lubes.  I want to personally thank Quigley for opening my eyes to that lube. I ordered a .5 oz tube of it shortly after he posted about it. I tore into my HW95K Luxus and stripped all lubes that were present out. My piston is buttoned. Not the glue on kind, although I have used them with no failures. But the buttons in the gun I am discussing now is delrin buttons inserted and glued, into small blind holes drilled into six different locations on the piston.  After stripping all grease, I used the Krytox  behind the seal and i dabed some on all the buttons. I even wiped a very thin smear behind the seal and at the rear of the piston. No reason. Just did.  I have been keeping up with velocity. Directly after relubing with Krytox, I was shooting FTT's (20 cal) at 831 fps average. I have shot a full tin through the gun since then (500ct) and I just got through running ten FTT'sacross the chrony. Average FPS of 831 fps. Extreme Spread of 6 fps.  The stuff is working great so far.  The cocking is smooth as butter. The firing cycle is " SNICK!".  About as good as it can get.  I don't test my gun anywhere near an much or as meticulous as NCED so I am especially glad tp hear of his favorable review of the stuff. But I would never have considered it if it hadn't been for Quigley. So.......thanks Quigley.  It was a GREAT idea.  I am WELL pleased with the behavior of my 20 cal HW95. My FTT's weigh in at 11.8 grains.  My HW95 is pushing those suckers out the end othe tube at around 18 fpe.  And I am a happy All American speed nut. But I only prefer speed if there is accuracy. And at 50 yards, I can hit whatever I put that first mil-dot on.  (If I am shooting with forearm resting in my hand from a bench)  It will punch some tight groups at 50. But at 30 yards.....it's just a hole that slightly enlargens (the spell checker said that's not a word) but it sounds good to me.  Happy Shooting and Happy New Year everyone!!!!

[nced]

Short update here.........
The newest .177 R9 with the new style "slide on the receiver tube" cocking shoe and COMPLETELY lubed with Krytox GPL205 is getting smoother and smoother with use!  Right now I'm considering stripping my HW77 and relubing with the "205", but I MIGHT even replace the oring sealed piston cap with a Krytox lubed factory parachute seal to see how much difference it makes. My goal isn't max velocity, it's max poi stability through the days temperature shifts ('specially in spring when there can be a 30 degree shift) so if the Krytox will make a factory parachute seal consistent enough I just may switch because I do prefer the softer shot cycle I get with a parachute seal.

[john]

...the new style "slide on the receiver tube" cocking shoe...

Ed, is there a source of detailed info about that shoe (or maybe you made it)? I would like to find out about it.

[nced]

...the new style "slide on the receiver tube" cocking shoe...

Ed, is there a source of detailed info about that shoe (or maybe you made it)? I would like to find out about it.

You can buy them from Vortek for under $6
http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=141
Matter of fact, my new R9 piston was "linerless" as well as having the new style shoe and I was able to install an old liner in the new piston and still use the new cocking show without any piston modifications. Here is a pic of the new receiver, piston and new style cocking shoe with an old piston liner installed in the piston.

[john]

Thank you for the pic. I'm guessing it is polycarbonate and not metal.

[jdub]

Thank you for the pic. I'm guessing it is polycarbonate and not metal.

The new style shoe is metal.  I got one from Vortek to install on my old style HW95 next time I open it up.

[nced]

Thank you for the pic. I'm guessing it is polycarbonate and not metal.

The new style shoe is metal.  I got one from Vortek to install on my old style HW95 next time I open it up.

Yep......some sort of metal. I just ordered a spare from Vortek and also a VAC seal to test with the Krytox and compare to my oring sealed piston cap.