Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal

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Offline rsterne

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Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« on: July 24, 2012, 01:43:06 AM »
Many thanks to sniper (Dan) for his speedy delivery of my new winter project....  What a BEAUTY!!!.... 



I got the Air Stripper and a full power valve stem as well.... plus a new Leapers 4-16 x 40 AO IR scope which I found I could mount in low rings and still clear just fine.... The gun measures almost 45" long and weighs 9.75 lbs. with the scope....

Hopefully I'll find the time to clean it up and put a few JSB Kings down the barrel before too long....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline .22 Varmint

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 01:55:33 AM »
Cool Looking AG! as a project gun, what do you intend to do with it?

Andrew
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 02:05:45 AM »
Goal is 18 shots at 50-60 FPE if possible....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline Air Rifle Hunter

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 02:31:16 AM »
 Nice rifle. I look forward to reading about the tuning/modification process. :)

Offline MustangMike

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 02:34:40 AM »
bob how do you like that leapers scope ? im torn between the 4-16 swat and the 3-12 swat, im one of those stick with what works and scared to buy something different so figured the 3-12 swat would have the same glass as the 3-12 front ao i have
  • atx
.25 hatsan at44s-10 (down the road)
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.22 ccs 2400kt, extensively modified using the sikes touch.

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Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 03:41:01 PM »
The 3-12 x 44 SWAT is different glass than the 3-12 x 40 AO.... They have had several models of the SWAT over the years.... I had one of the early ones, and was very disappointed with it.... First of all, it was more like a 4.5-12, the field of view was limited on low power.... and secondly, it wasn't near as bright on low power as the 3-9 x 32 I had.... They may have improved it with later models, I've never bought another.... The sidewheel is a nice feature, the extra weight isn't.... and I'm gunshy of getting another after my first experience, especially with the higher price tag....

The 4-16 x 40 AO is pretty good.... At the highest powers, there seems to be a bit of glare.... I don't know if a sunshade would help that, the store where I bought the scope didn't have them anyway.... but it kind of looks like internal glare/reflections to me.... The IR has the glare from the LEDs typical of all the Leapers I have had with an IR.... although it does have dimmer settings than others I have had.... IMO, the IR is a gimmick, not worth the extra weight.... It does have 9 MilDots per side (10 if you count the post) which is good for long ranges on high power.... I'd like to see how your 3-12 x 40 AO IR compares alongside the 4-16.... I have a feeling the higher magnifications are not worth the extra weight, and the glare may be related to that as well....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline MustangMike

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 05:09:57 PM »
bob

i havent noticed any glare with my 3-12, and the IR at first i thought was useless but i use it on the lowest brightness for the green light and it doesnt glare at all. i was worried about the reports i had heard of the sight picture going blurry on the 4-16's as you reach the 16x so i opted for the 3-12 and i have a great sight picture thats sharp and clear even around the edges on 12x.

i think i took some pictures looking through the scope on 4x and 12x.. let me check if i did i will pm them to you, dont want to hijack your thread into a scope thread.
  • atx
.25 hatsan at44s-10 (down the road)
.22 disco,  bnm breech & shroud, katana stock, 7" tube extension, leapers 3-12x40AO
.22 ccs 2400kt, extensively modified using the sikes touch.

www.airgunlab.com
www.discosrus.net
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Offline tom96

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 05:15:45 PM »
looks like an awesome gun. i have the same scope and must have gotten lucky because its clearer and more precise than my dads 4-12 hawke airmax.
 and im really looking forward to seeing just how much you can get from that gun.

Offline grumpy

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 09:39:35 PM »
Gotta ask bob, why not the .25cal  BT65. It does what you want right out of the box.

Dave
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 10:12:33 PM »
The size and weight.... The BT65 weighs nearly the same without a scope as mine complete.... In Canada, both come as an under 500 fps rifle, but that's just a simple valve stem change....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 11:17:33 PM »
I cleaned the barrel with Goo Gone and then shot some different pellets to find out how it does in stock non-PAL form.... Here are the results....



From 200 bar down to 85 bar it delivered over 200 shots (23 9-shot clips) within less than a 6% range.... Dropping down to my standard 4% ES requires filling to 195 bar and refilling at 90 bar and gives 21 clips or 189 shots.... The lightest pellets (17.3 gr. Lasers) shot 450 fps (7.8 FPE), H&N Match 21.6 gr. shot 420, JSB King 25.4 gr. averaged 393 fps (8.7 FPE), Baracudas shot 365, and EunJin Domes went 345 fps.... The EunJin Points were too long to cycle reliably in the magazine, but loaded singly shot 320 fps (9.5 FPE).... The 189 shot string of JSBs used 105 bar of air from the 230 cc (14 CI) cylinder for an efficiency of 1.12 FPE/CI (14.6 barcc/FPE)....

All this gives is a baseline for comparison after I swap out the valve stem for the full power one.... It will be interesting to see the difference....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 04:02:42 PM »
The conversion to full power started today.... Here is a photo of the non-PAL (under 500 fps) and full power valve stems.... They seal on a plastic (Delrin?) seat inside the valve housing that is 0.171" diameter....



The plastic spring seat is pressed into the end of the valve against the large flat end in the photo.... Because it is shouldered and fits flush, it is difficult to remove.... I therefore filed a flat in each side big enough to get the blade of a small flat screwdriver into to pry it out.... as this won't be the last time I take the valve apart....

Here are the port measurements and areas....

Hole in plastic spring seat 0.196" (larger than the ID of the spring)
ID of the valve spring 0.171" (which limits the flow into the valve)
ID of the valve seat 0.171" (area 0.0230 sq.in.)
OD of the non-PAL stem 0.153" (area 0.0184 sq.in.)
Remaining throat area with non-PAL stem 0.0046 sq.in. (equivalent to 0.077" D)
OD of the full power stem 0.100" (area 0.0079 sq.in.)
Remaining throat area with the full power stem 0.0151 sq.in. (equivalent to 0.139" D)
Six exhaust ports measuring 0.105" D each (total area 0.052 sq.in. - over twice what is required)

The conclusion is that (at least in theory) more air can get into the valve through the spring than can get out through the valve throat, which is the limiting factor to airflow in the valve.... From previous experience, the wasted volume of the six exhaust ports and the groove connecting them affects the efficiency, but that is the subject for later experiments.... Later today, I hope to shoot some string with the gun in it's "stock" full power form....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline grumpy

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 05:36:49 PM »
I'll be following this one with great interest. Thanks for posting.
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Offline PakProtector

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 09:10:12 PM »
I wonder if BT65 valve bits can be applied to good effect... ;)
cheers,
Douglas
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Offline Gippeto

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2012, 11:30:01 AM »
Have made valve stems for both at44 and bt65....they are completely different and not interchangable.

Al

Offline AmBraCol

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 12:19:07 PM »
Have made valve stems for both at44 and bt65....they are completely different and not interchangable.

Al


Thanks.  I'm reading up, trying to decide exactly what rifle I want to buy.  The AT44 and BT65 are both on the short list, along with the Marauder and the Sumatra.  I'm particularly interested in the 22 or 25 calibers for use in long range shooting. 

Since we're on the subject of the AT44 (and, since it's been brought into this thread) the BT65, how hard is it to obtain spare parts and such for these rifles?  I know you can pretty much buy an entire Mrod piece by piece from Crosman.  What about Hatsan?  Are they reasonably customer (tinkerer) friendly?
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Offline Gippeto

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2012, 12:35:29 PM »
The fellow I bought my at44's from (same guy Bob got his from...Dan) stocks a few spare parts. Have tossed around getting a LW drop in barrel from him...those rifles so equipped shoot like a house on fire once lightly tuned.  8)

If I had it to do over again, I would have ordered both rifles with the LW barrels.

Not sure what's available in the US.

Al




Offline mtsheron70

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2012, 01:22:17 PM »
I was getting ready to ask why so low fps!  Then I remembered where your from!  I hate that in some countries guns are so limited in their potential due to crazy laws!
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Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2012, 01:36:18 PM »
I have my PAL.... so standby, that is about to change.... to over 40 FPE in stock "full power" form with just a valve stem change....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

Offline rsterne

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Re: Hatsan AT44S-10 Long in .25 cal
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2012, 10:39:01 PM »
I got a chance to try a few pellets today in the "full power" version of the gun.... The graph below shows the shot strings for all shots greater than 96% of the maximum velocity for each pellet.... The strings are shifted so that they align with the pressure range which worked for each pellet.... As is typical, the heavier the pellet, the lower the pressure at the peak velocity....



Summary of results (averages given):

Beeman Laser 17.3 gr. - 965 fps (35.7 FPE) - 22 shots @ 1.25 FPE/CI
H&N Match 21.6 gr. - 899 fps (38.8 FPE) - 23 shots @ 1.27 FPE/CI
JSB Exact King 25.4 gr. - 854 fps (41.1 FPE) - 25 shots @ 1.33 FPE/CI
Benjamin Domed 27.8 gr. - 815 fps (41.0 FPE) - 23 shots @ 1.40 FPE/CI
H&N Baracuda 30.9 gr. - 787 fps (42.5 FPE) - 24 shots @ 1.40 FPE/CI
EunJin Domed 35.3 gr. - 750 fps (44.1 FPE) - 26 shots @ 1.36 FPE/CI
EunJin Pointed 41.7 gr. - 707 fps (46.3 FPE) - only fired 3 shots (single load)

It is interesting to note that Hatsan advertise this rifle as 42 FPE, so they are certainly not exaggerating.... Since the primary purpose of this rifle will be varmint hunting at longer ranges, I will concentrate on the pellets best suited for this purpose.... ie the ones with a good Ballistics Coefficient and a decent muzzle velocity for the job.... The initial development work will be done with the JSB Kings, and if I can get upwards of 50 FPE, I will also try the Benjamin Domes, the new H&N 27.8 gr. Baracuda Hunter Extremes,  and the H&N Baracudas.... The next step will be to modify the stock so that I can adjust the hammer spring preload without removing it.... Since the pellets I want to test are topping out at 160-170 bar, and the rifle is good to 200.... I will have to increase the preload to take advantage of what should be more power lurking in this design....

Bob
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsonal:
.177 Diana 34, 1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine (Grouse Gun), 2260 PCP Rifle (37 FPE), 2560 PCP Rifle (52 FPE), .22 BAM B-26, .22 BAM B-51, Hatsan AT-4410 Long (70 FPE),
"Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, .308 & .357 unregulated; working on the Mk.III, a .410 shotgun, and .458 cal)

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