The future of gas pistons???

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Offline pappa

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The future of gas pistons???
« on: July 23, 2012, 02:08:25 PM »
I have 2 nitro piston air rifles that I love and have a lot of respect for. Am also converting one of my good springers to gas piston. In paying attention to new rifles coming out in the last few months, I notice more and more gas piston powered guns appearing. I has crossed my mind that the old springers, as we know it, may be on the way out and gas pistons becoming the new standard. The gas powered pieces offer an edge on technique, usability and maintenance so I'm thinking that this may be a good thing.

A good conversation on this may offer some of us and the suppliers some good ideas. Anyone have an opinion or idea they would like to share?
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Offline Scotchmo

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 02:36:43 PM »
A well designed and well executed wire spring is going to be more consistent and longer lasting than a gas spring. Because of cost considerations, weight consideration, space limitations and the desire for powerful airguns, compromises are usually made when using a wire spring in an airgun. The easiest way to address those considerations is with a gas spring.

When you want small, light and powerful, the gas spring wins.

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 03:10:11 PM »
Sounds to me like the the topic heading should be: The future of spring guns?

Offline ezman604

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 03:24:00 PM »
It's sometimes good to rehash a topic to bring it to the new members of the forum. But we have discussed this several times in the past. I believe if you search for the topic, you will find many schools of thought. But the consensus is generally that spring power plants are in no danger of becoming extinct. That's just the opinion of many.
NP power plants have been around since I believe the 80's. They continue to evolve and improve. They are a niche of their own, as is the coiled spring. As prices continue to drop and competition stiffer, I'm sure we'll see more and more NP powered airguns. But MHO is the spring will never be 100% replaced.
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Offline supertech77

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 09:29:08 PM »
i am not sure if the spring is in trouble,after the way that browning and or hatsan has come out with the recoil system on the spring break barrel 25 supercharged pistol,its only a matter of time until they use it on there rifles,biggest down fall to spring guns is the recoil and the scope kill,s take that out of the equation ,and with the quality of some of the cheap np out there that company's are putting in these airguns to save a buck,and there is still the temp situation on the np's in winter, i think spring's will be around for a long time,and to me,and imo, tuning the spring guns is 1/2 the attraction to the hobby,so as long as there's us older guys playing, experimenting, and learning and passing it on,spring guns are and will be OK  ; ;D  ;D
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Offline robert w

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 09:35:04 PM »
seems to me that when i had a benjamin  np , it wasnt very good when you went outdoors in cold weather , i had to let it warm up before any accuracy and power change . 1 of the major reasons im stuck on spring guns . im not against gas pistons . they arent my cup of tea . but it gives lots more options for us to ponder over when buyin another gun
in 1939 hitler said give up your guns and germany will be a safer place... then a short time after all guns were taken ,he told the jews "board the train" a word in histroy

Offline cncjerry

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 10:17:51 PM »
without rehashing as someone suggested, as a new member, there is in my experience a huge dfference in recoil with NP winning over spring.  My NP kicks pretty much straight back whereas the spring jumps all over and has noticeable torque.  I would say the NP guns are what, 10% more, if that in dollars?  But I think the real variance is not the NP vs spring but how well the barrel pivots, the trigger and the barrel that would set the guns apart dollar for dollar.

I wish there was a single pump PCP that was powerful and less than $200.  I think that would be the gun to beat.  I was talking to the guy that makes the multi-pump conversions for the IZH pistols.  I was thinking about making a carbine based on one.  Just add a longer barrel with his multi-piump setup but I lost interest and he might have as well since the pumping is a pain.  But I think that is what we need, and accurate, powerful, single pump pnuematic for under $200.  Even if it was bear to pump once, as long as all the parts were strong if I had to stand on it I wouldn't care.  It would also look like a rifle instead of a futuristic weapon like some of the pcp guns.

Jerry

Offline yoshi800

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 10:42:21 PM »
I'm still waiting for a lightweight portable rail gun.  (That doesn't leave me sterile after firing it)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 10:43:57 PM by yoshi800 »
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Offline cncjerry

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 01:48:29 AM »
one of these days I will find a surplus MRI machine to harvest.  Rail gun would be next.

Offline RedFeather

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 01:53:32 AM »
So far, Diana does not have a gas pistoned air gun.  There sales don't seem to be declining.  It's like manual or automatic transmissions.  Both will be around a long time.  One thing to consider is the quality of the gas piston.  You get a bad wound wire spring, it breaks and for about $20 you can get a very well made replacement.  If and when your gas piston goes south, you have to replace the entire piston.  Not a problem today but, twenty years from now, I bet I could still find a spring for a Diana, etc.

Offline QVTom

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 03:07:03 AM »
One thing to consider is the quality of the gas piston.  You get a bad wound wire spring, it breaks and for about $20 you can get a very well made replacement.  If and when your gas piston goes south, you have to replace the entire piston.  Not a problem today but, twenty years from now, I bet I could still find a spring for a Diana, etc.

You make an excellent point.   If forward compatibility is important, the spring may be da king.
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Offline silverback2000

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 07:35:34 AM »
Back in the days before internet on of the leading airgun mag writers used to hunt with a theoben sirocco always saying how brilliant it was and when I get back into air rifles this year there are gas rams being launched at more affordable prices. Back then I got laughed at for having a pneumatic pump. They weren't real guns. All the Target boys used hw77s and the like even though my gun shot without a wobble. now pcps are the dogs and most shooters I come across use them but the number of springers made and on offer is vastly larger than in the 80s with technological advances at 120 gbp 250 gbp and 350gbp plus. So the market will change but springers are still going to feature strongly for a while longer. Their simplicity tunability and the fact that just need cocking to fire. A screwdriver and basic tools to maintain and tune. Will always be attractive. Why do people run old cars. They like to maintain them. Why do people spend a fortune on modifying cars when the same money could buy the next model up that is already quicker. Because its satisfying to think I tuned that up. Springers for ever.
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Offline silverback2000

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 07:40:11 AM »
That was a rant wasn't it? Was it Gamo that claimed big numbers fo
Quote
r a gas ram that didn't deliver? That's gonna hurt gas RAM rep for a year or so.  If your springer didn't deliver the numbers and you like it. Just POP a better spring and seals and the like and go shooting
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 08:58:11 AM by silverback2000 »
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Offline Bullit

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 09:55:12 AM »
Until the quality and consistency of the (standard production low-buck), imported NP is improved, I don't think there's any risk of the spring going away in the near future.  The tuning possibilities up/down is also a plus.
Edited to clarify and eliminate Theoben and high end NP units.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 10:43:09 AM by KYMike »

Offline D14Jeff

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2012, 10:06:16 AM »
what issues have the nitro piston had ???
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Offline Kazman

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2012, 10:30:25 AM »
Back in the days before internet on of the leading airgun mag writers used to hunt with a theoben sirocco always saying how brilliant it was and when I get back into air rifles this year there are gas rams being launched at more affordable prices. Back then I got laughed at for having a pneumatic pump. They weren't real guns. All the Target boys used hw77s and the like even though my gun shot without a wobble. now pcps are the dogs and most shooters I come across use them but the number of springers made and on offer is vastly larger than in the 80s with technological advances at 120 gbp 250 gbp and 350gbp plus. So the market will change but springers are still going to feature strongly for a while longer. Their simplicity tunability and the fact that just need cocking to fire. A screwdriver and basic tools to maintain and tune. Will always be attractive. Why do people run old cars. They like to maintain them. Why do people spend a fortune on modifying cars when the same money could buy the next model up that is already quicker. Because its satisfying to think I tuned that up. Springers for ever.
Until the quality and consistency of the NP is improved, I don't think there's any risk of the spring going away in the near future.  The tuning possibilities up/down is also a plus.
Good point . I lived in England back then .
I too had a Theoben Siroco in .22 , also had a BSA Mercury S in .177 ,and a Sheridan Silver streak in .20 . All three are different for sure . My go to gun at that time was the BSA that was until i figured out how to shoot the Theoben .
Hold sensitivty was something i knew nothing about  ( no internet then) . I modified the Sheridan to a really good power level , the Theoben was new technology back then so it was advised to leave well enough alone . As for the BSA , that thing was a power house springer  , easy to maintain and tweak . Yes the years have gone by , but both are still around , while the likes of Diana , Crossman and the other brands are around , i dont see springers dying . No adays i still have a fondness for all rifles . I have a XL1100 , Discovery , Phantom , and Benji classic , plus an array of centerfires , rimfires  , pistols and shotguns , the one i use most though ........... the XL1100 .     

Offline Cliff

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2012, 10:34:41 AM »
I recently got an HW90 Theoben.  At 26 Bar pre-charge (377 psi) it's a bloody violent beast. When that gas strut unloads you know it and  so does whatever I'm pointing it at.
It destroyed a Bushnell Trophy XLT in fewer than 200 shots.
I'm going to mount the replacement on a dampa mount and cross my fingers.

I wonder how many times Bushnell will replace the scope before they start asking questions.

Anyway I do like the gas strut.  There is no break in period, It shoots the same right out of the box as it does after a few thousand rounds.  I haven't had it in the cold ( below freezing) yet.  I know that molecules do condense in frigid conditions and seals do get  harder when frozen,  so there may be some kind of net negative in freezing weather as there are with springs and greases. 

There is no reason not to leave the gas strut gun cocked for extended periods since the gun cocked is not under  much more stress than it is when not cocked due to the hefty pre-charge.  Interestingly some engineers will insist that a steel spring, properly heat treated  and made from the correct alloy won't experience fatigue under extended compression.  I know that good springs do fatigue having spent  years as a machinist/tool maker  I've replaced a very great many exhausted and  expensive  springs on die sets.  But they last for many hundreds of thousands of cycles.

I've read the smarmy condescending  write ups about steel springs being  a thing of the past and how some gun makers are stuck with ancient technology (yadda yadda yadda), but  I think that sort of writing merely exemplifies the ignorance of the author. 

I don't think the steel spring is dead.   I think it merely has competition.
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Offline Bullit

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2012, 10:47:08 AM »
what issues have the nitro piston had ???
Mostly, consistency in power, when new, and longevity due to losses over time.   Same issues cheap auto units have battled.

Offline AirScopes

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2012, 11:01:46 AM »
It has crossed my mind that the old springers, as we know it, may be on the way out and gas pistons becoming the new standard.
When a new thing comes along the prediction is often "out with the old"... however it really doesn't work that way. CDs "replaced" records, but records continued to be used by DJs and radio stations. Nuclear power? Solar? Wind? Which G phone do you have?

I know my old guns aren't going anywhere soon, and there are thousands of people like me that own more guns than they need... my guess is that creates a market for springs even in spring guns were to be stopped in production tomorrow.

Man is not a creature who adapts suddenly to change.

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Offline Nikoman

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Re: The future of gas pistons???
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2012, 03:51:02 PM »
I recently got an HW90 Theoben.  At 26 Bar pre-charge (377 psi) it's a bloody violent beast. When that gas strut unloads you know it and  so does whatever I'm pointing it at.
It destroyed a Bushnell Trophy XLT in fewer than 200 shots.
I'm going to mount the replacement on a dampa mount and cross my fingers.

I wonder how many times Bushnell will replace the scope before they start asking questions.
Those Sportsmatch/Dampa mounts should help out a lot, Cliff.
I've said it a few times in other threads that my RX-1 still has the same scope and Dampa mount for over 15 years now. It's been shot tens of thousands of times and there's absolutely NO power loss and NO scope movement. Try shooting that many times with a coiled spring, good luck with that.
When I was shopping for another hunting air rifle, I was looking at the R1 and my wife stepped in, pulled rank and picked the RX-1. She really liked the way the Theoben/Crow Mag shot and thought the RX-1 was a nice partner to that gun, turned out to be a devastating duo in the field.
Cliff, which caliber HW90 do you have?

Another thing I'd like to mention is that my Beeman/Webley Bearcub is out at the moment getting a Gas Ram conversion as we speak. So the coiled spring can kiss my Gas Ram! If there was a gas piston conversion available for my Dianas, they would kiss those coils goodbye. I shoot a lot and most of my guns are for hunting. I got tired of cocking and de-cocking my springers in the field and sometimes I've lost chances because the gun wasn't cocked and ready. Thanks to the gas piston guns, I don't have to worry about that.
I'm not trying to disrespect the coiled springs, they have their place too - like plinking and target shooting for me where they don't sit cocked for periods of time.
My wife and I hands down prefer the way the gas piston guns shoot, much smoother shot cycle and their proven reliability speaks for itself - they've been around for over 30 years now.

And about cold weather, I live in California and it doesn't get very cold where I live. Though the winters can get brisk out here in the valley and a few times I've shot in below freezing (upper 20 degrees F) with the gas pistons and they didn't skip a beat. I Chrony'd them out in the
The only downside I see in a gas piston gun is the cocking effort can be a little tougher but it's never bothered me.
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