wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )



Author Topic: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )  (Read 9754 times)

Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2012, 08:10:26 PM »
I totally understand jm making his seal for  the hatsan 125 and wfh  so that they need a break in period  obviously he is just making sure  no one can say his seal is under sized.

Mike,

It also allows for someone who "over-hones" his cylinder too much, too !

Dave
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2012, 08:13:35 PM »
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

Mark,

Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?

Dave
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Mike 4888blues

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2012, 08:40:08 PM »
I totally understand jm making his seal for  the hatsan 125 and wfh  so that they need a break in period  obviously he is just making sure  no one can say his seal is under sized.

Mike,

It also allows for someone who "over-hones" his cylinder too much, too !

Dave
  Absolutely Dave

 Also allows for any receivers  that are not exact  to the original specks of its design, meaning some may be a little over
J M knows all this to well
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Offline Mike 4888blues

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2012, 08:46:39 PM »
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.

 Does the enforcer instructions mention  to  do it under water  so you can see the amout of bubble when  being discharged for a lower power amount?

That's what I would do Mark,  so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
 it will be a pain i believe cause then  you have to install it,  to see  your results, but  its part of getting  to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.

 It will not take  much being that is a small cylinder, so minute  is the word.

if  i was doing it  i  do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface,  and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol  just food for thought
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 08:49:05 PM by Mike 4888blues »
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2012, 11:32:40 PM »
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.

 Does the enforcer instructions mention  to  do it under water  so you can see the amout of bubble when  being discharged for a lower power amount?

That's what I would do Mark,  so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
 it will be a pain i believe cause then  you have to install it,  to see  your results, but  its part of getting  to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.

 It will not take  much being that is a small cylinder, so minute  is the word.

if  i was doing it  i  do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface,  and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol  just food for thought

The biggest problem is not knowing how much has been released and being unable to do anything about it if it is too much . . .

Dave
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Mike 4888blues

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2012, 01:01:26 AM »
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.

 Does the enforcer instructions mention  to  do it under water  so you can see the amout of bubble when  being discharged for a lower power amount?

That's what I would do Mark,  so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
 it will be a pain i believe cause then  you have to install it,  to see  your results, but  its part of getting  to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.

 It will not take  much being that is a small cylinder, so minute  is the word.

if  i was doing it  i  do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface,  and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol  just food for thought

The biggest problem is not knowing how much has been released and being unable to do anything about it if it is too much . . .

Dave

I believe moller would recharge if we need for a small fee

I would only  let fine  fine bubbles out and only a couple  and that's it    what a pain though to have to install it to test its results  and have to keep taking everything apart till your where you want it...
 I may look into buying the rest  of the set up, so I can fill my own  and read the fill amounts,and even buy a tank, they have places to buy gases
  The tool i bought for de gasing was almost 16.00  ah I will play it by ear

 

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Offline Smackey54

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2012, 04:02:50 PM »
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

Mark,

Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?

Dave

My rifle is SAS with the 2nd iteration of the original trigger. Machined parts rather than laminated. I will take a look at reducing the pressure in the N-Forcer Yellow using the water methond Mike suggested. But I am in no hurry to go after that as the XL piston is doing pretty well.
Mark
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2012, 04:16:56 PM »
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

Mark,

Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?

Dave

My rifle is SAS with the 2nd iteration of the original trigger. Machined parts rather than laminated. I will take a look at reducing the pressure in the N-Forcer Yellow using the water method Mike suggested. But I am in no hurry to go after that as the XL piston is doing pretty well.
Mark

Mark,

Do you have any Chrony and Cocking Force numbers for your setup, as it is right now with the N-Forcer Yellow ?

Thanks !

Dave
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 04:20:24 PM by Tarheel »
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2012, 04:31:26 PM »
Wheels are turning in my head . . .

Mark got 33 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-

Moeller "Yellow"  with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 34.7 FPE.

With Scotchmo's suggested "EC" of .33, until testing the FPE would be 33 FPE. . .

With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.

Dave
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 04:41:32 PM by Tarheel »
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Mike 4888blues

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2012, 04:40:44 PM »
Wheels are turning in my head . . .

Mark got 33 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-

Moeller "Yellow"  with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 34.7 FPE.

With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.

Dave


 well the hatsan 125 and wfh  ( same) lol pistons  are heavy duty  thick  and solid and big.

 Cant wait  to  we all see what the results are  for the guys with .25 calibers  they should feel very happy.
 I my self would be very happy with 950. 960 tops in my .22
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2012, 04:43:07 PM »
Wheels are turning in my head . . . I added in Scotchmo's "EC" of .33 before testing .

Mark got 32.3 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-

Moeller "Yellow"  with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 33.9 FPE.

With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.

Dave
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 06:05:24 PM by Tarheel »
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2012, 05:01:08 PM »
Personally, these are MY "goals" . . . I could "live with" 33 - 34 fpe, depending on how things turn out.

1 - 950 FPS w / 18.1 gr pellets  ( 36.3 FPE )

2 - 860 FPS w / 22.1 gr pellets  ( 36.3 FPE )

By comparison, we are getting  900 FPS w / 14.3 gr pellets ( 25.7 FPE ) 

In order to achieve 36.3 FPE w / 14.3 gr pellets, velocity would have to increase to 1070 FPS ( too fast for accuracy, but I would use heavier pellets )

In comparison, the increase from the 197 lb Average Force of the Moeller "RED" gas ram to the 253.5 lb Average Force of the Moeller "YELLOW" gas ram should increase velocity w / 14.3 gr pellets to 1029 FPS, yielding 33.6 FPE ( close enough for me ).

Of course, the .25 caliber guns have not been done, yet, either . . .

Dave
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Smackey54

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2012, 05:10:10 PM »
Guys,
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   CPHP   14.3   941.3   28.14155421
2      14.3   953.5   28.87575554
3      14.3   964.8   29.56422857
4      14.3   966   29.63781716
5      14.3   967.1   29.70535373
6      14.3   964.7   29.55810032
7      14.3   965.7   29.61941144
8      14.3   969.1   29.8283444
9      14.3   968.3   29.77911764
10      14.3   970.3   29.90226077
   Average      963.08   29.4589111
   Min      941.3   28.14155421
   Max      970.3   29.90226077
   Spread      29   1.760706557

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Shot   Pellet     Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   H&N FTT   20.06   852   32.34193817
2      20.06   850.5   32.22815835
3      20.06   851.7   32.31916616
4      20.06   849.8   32.17512971
5      20.06   849.4   32.14484724
6      20.06   851.4   32.29640218
7      20.06   853.6   32.46352429
8      20.06   852.7   32.39510403
9      20.06   851.8   32.32675594
10      20.06   852.5   32.37990933
   Average      851.54   32.30702437
   Min      849.4   32.14484724
   Max      853.6   32.46352429
   Spread      4.2   0.318677052
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Offline Lambchops

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2012, 05:13:05 PM »
I like waffles, who else likes waffles?
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2012, 05:13:23 PM »
I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Shot   Pellet     Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   H&N FTT   20.06   852   32.34193817
2      20.06   850.5   32.22815835
3      20.06   851.7   32.31916616
4      20.06   849.8   32.17512971
5      20.06   849.4   32.14484724
6      20.06   851.4   32.29640218
7      20.06   853.6   32.46352429
8      20.06   852.7   32.39510403
9      20.06   851.8   32.32675594
10      20.06   852.5   32.37990933
   Average      851.54   32.30702437
   Min      849.4   32.14484724
   Max      853.6   32.46352429
   Spread      4.2   0.318677052


Naughty boy  . . . Now, I have to re-calculate !

But accurate data is better anyway !

Dave
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline WHITEFANG

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2012, 05:18:47 PM »
NOT BAD #'S FOR A .25. I will take those anytime.
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2012, 05:58:18 PM »
Guys,
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   CPHP   14.3   941.3   28.14155421

   Average      963.08   29.4589111

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Shot   Pellet     Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   H&N FTT   20.06   852   32.34193817

   Average      851.54   32.30702437
   


OK . . . The .25 caliber w / N-forcer "Yellow" was 32.3 FPE . . . Moeller "Yellow" should be 34 FPE

I wish I had some Force Numbers for the XL ram to compare.


HMM . . . Actually I DO !

The Average Force of the XL Nitro Piston works out to be 226 lb, based on an "EC" of .33 . . .  Slightly less than the N-Forcer "Yellow" .


Dave
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 06:19:54 PM by Tarheel »
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2012, 06:25:50 PM »
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Mark,

During the time you had the N-Forcer gas ram "Yellow" gas ram installed, did you suffer any parts breakage ( other than the stock ) and did any parts, particularly the SEAR and other TRIGGER parts show any signs of premature or excessive wear ?

Thanks !

Dave
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

Crosman Nitro Venom .22 (Wood Stock)

180 BAR GAS RAM - HATSAN (Coming Soon )

Offline Smackey54

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2012, 07:22:08 PM »
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Mark,

During the time you had the N-Forcer gas ram "Yellow" gas ram installed, did you suffer any parts breakage ( other than the stock ) and did any parts, particularly the SEAR and other TRIGGER parts show any signs of premature or excessive wear ?

Thanks !

Dave

The sear showed no excessive wear, but while my .25 was cocked, I reached for a pellet, got distracted and the gun slipped from my hand. The shoulder cocking slot of the piston slipped off the sear and the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block. When I disassembled it, there was no apparent damage to the sear..or the cocking shoulder of the piston.
I felt very fortunate that my fingers were not close to the breech, or between the cocking lever and the stock. I am comfortable with the XL piston right now and they are about $30 shipped. If they last half as long as the N-Forcer or Moeller, I will be happy.

Mark
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Offline Tarheel

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Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2012, 07:37:44 PM »
The sear showed no excessive wear, but while my .25 was cocked, I reached for a pellet, got distracted and the gun slipped from my hand. The shoulder cocking slot of the piston slipped off the sear and the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block. When I disassembled it, there was no apparent damage to the sear..or the cocking shoulder of the piston.
I felt very fortunate that my fingers were not close to the breech, or between the cocking lever and the stock. I am comfortable with the XL piston right now and they are about $30 shipped. If they last half as long as the N-Forcer or Moeller, I will be happy.

Mark

This was NOT on a QUATTRO trigger equipped rifle . . .

Supposedly, the QUATTRO trigger is design to "NEVER" fire if dropped, even if the safety is off . . .

How were you able to determine what caused it, Mark, rather than a failure of the "Anti-Beartrap  Mechanism", for example.

Just hunting for facts to store away . . .

Dave
Even with the finest pellet rifle in the world, shooting the most accurate pellet in that particular rifle, and sighting through a perfectly-adjusted scope with the world's finest optics, it all still boils down to the person holding the rifle . . . !

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180 BAR GAS RAM - HATSAN (Coming Soon )

GTA - What's been your success with air gun target practice?