Copy paste airguns

[Job]

No comment 

[Tomg]

I am not surprised not even a little bit.
But it's kind of strange to see first hand the lack of respect there is for someone else's hard work.

[Sfttailrdr46]

  No Comment !!!!

[anti-squirrel]

Why does this surprise anybody?  Anybody with a lathe and vertical or end mill can machine stuff...  Buy one of the real thing, take it apart, fabricate the bits-n-pieces and odds-n-ends... make tiny changers in visual appearance and you have a new gun.

I gave up a long time ago since I've seen so much software pirated.  Given how few man-hours it takes to make an airgun versus how many man-hours it takes to develop software, I guess my sense of scale is skewed

Still, this is nasty piracy, and just goes to show how low some folks can be.

[triggertreat]

That's really sad to see.  Stealing is a major abominable offense that is easily avoidable too.  The scary part is the safety issues with these homemade guns.  This will hurt all of us airgunners in some form long-term.

[anti-squirrel]

That's really sad to see.  Stealing is a major abominable offense that is easily avoidable too.  The scary part is the safety issues with these homemade guns.  This will hurt all of us airgunners in some form long-term.

I agree with part of this, but not all.

Safety issues?  Certainly.  However, the parts are being milled from billet and chances are nobody will get hurt.  Yes they are home-made and they are also reproductions to the thousandth of the inch, so dimensions are the same.  Unless exotic materials are being used in the stock Impact (which I doubt), it is what it is.  It also offers those who would otherwise not get an airgun to use and enjoy them... and grow both the sport and knowledge.  I am not condoning this by any means, as this is thievery plain and simple.

But I do not see this hurting all of us airgunners in the long run.  Just look at how many people own Chinese airguns that are replicas of existing and considerably finer airguns.

I'll add I do not like spending top-dollar for an air-rifle that needs tuning and adjustment right from the factory in order to be usable.  If some of this bottom-feeder competition forces the good manufacturers to step it up, then so be it.

[Tomg]

Replica and such has no benefit to the manufacturing of the real deal. There is no data that support that at all, in fact to the contrary you'll find that in order to stay competitive (if it was a real market share competition) the original would lower their standards in order to compete on price. This happens over and and over, and more so these days were speed to market is key.
As far as safety and such goes, I don't necessary believe they are any worse or better than the original...on paper, however the copyist have no incentive as far as reputation goes, so cutting corners, or leave something out to save on complexity is something the buying public have no control over. So if you buy one of these, it's on your head, not anyone else.

[StevenG]

Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.

The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.

[Privateer]

Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.

The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.

I heard Mugg hired Thug the lawyer to take care of Ugg.

[Tomg]

Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.

The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.

Let's do something better, let's define stealing shall we.
Webster: And since it's unfair to expect anyone to check, here is the link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steal
: to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal
: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission
: to wrongly take and use (another person's idea, words, etc.)

By those, it's theft pure and simple, you copying someone else's work, not applying the learnt knowledge, it's not even reverse engineering.
Also the progress of technology as in engineering principles, like the wheel, I dont see Mugg's stone wheels on your car....only the applied principle of the wheel, which isnt theft but applied knowledge. None of which these guys in Indonesia are doing.

[StevenG]

Now I will say something many won't like, copying is not stealing.

The original gun was not designed without copying the works of others. The tires on my car would not exist without Ugg the caveman "stealing" the wheel from Mugg.

Let's do something better, let's define stealing shall we.
Webster:
: to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal
: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission
: to wrongly take and use (another person's idea, words, etc.)

By those, it's theft pure and simple, you copying someone else's work, not applying the learnt knowledge, it's not even reverse engineering.
Also the progress of technology as in engineering principles, like the wheel, I dont see Mugg's stone wheels on your car....only the applied principle of the wheel, which isnt theft but applied knowledge. None of which these guys in Indonesia are doing.

By adding parenthetical quotes to webster's you destroy the entire point of quoting it. Now instead of websters it is you defining the words in a way you see fit.

Taking requires depriving someone of something. Making a copy does not


You are splitting hairs on that wheel. Either we all owe Muggs descendants for the wheel or not. Clearly you agree we do not.

Indonesia is a developing nation, this is what all developing nations do. Ever seen a Sam Adam's bottle?
The point of that picture of him is that his shirt was made on a copied loom. The design was exactly copied, not "applying learned knowledge". As an up and coming nation that is what we did.

[Sfttailrdr46]

  Patents and copyrights are there to protect what we know as intellectual property. and copying someone else's ideas  and calling it your design if not stealing is down right wrong. For arguments sake lets say that you developed an amazing and very unique widget that would save millions of man dollars in the manufacturing process of windshield wiper blades . Then when you apply for the patent someone who has seen your idea sells it to the equipment manufacturer foe $10,000 and if it had been patented by you would have given you several millions in royalties over 10 years. How would you feel about the misappropriation of your intellectual property ?

[45Bravo]

So just for grins, I asked how much..
$715 US dollars..

[Tomg]

By adding parenthetical quotes to webster's you destroy the entire point of quoting it. Now instead of websters it is you defining the words in a way you see fit.

Taking requires depriving someone of something. Making a copy does not


You are splitting hairs on that wheel. Either we all owe Muggs descendants for the wheel or not. Clearly you agree we do not.

Indonesia is a developing nation, this is what all developing nations do. Ever seen a Sam Adam's bottle?
The point of that picture of him is that his shirt was made on a copied loom. The design was exactly copied, not "applying learned knowledge". As an up and coming nation that is what we did.

I dont know how you can equate what amounts to industrial espionage to anything but theft.
When it comes to the wheel we do agree that learned engineering principles can be applied without moral implications. Please keep in mind, that just cause you cannot enforce consequences to wrongdoing, doesn't make it right. Besides engineering application vs. wearable graphics (shirt example) are hugely different (scope & application) in that one is an assembly of parts for a specific functional whole, where as the other is someones artwork/picture which is under intellectual law, so if it applies, also wrong.
For instance, someone stealing ideas from Intel will be persecuted differently than someone producing bootlegged Pink Floyd t-shirts.

[StevenG]

Industrial espionage is not the same thing either. That requires inside knowledge. Again theft requires depriving the owner of something. No copy can ever be theft, no matter how much some want to conflate the two.

I would not be surprised if this is simply a copy of the appearance and not the function. Mind you the gun this is a claimed copy  of copied the look and feel of a firearm. Which is not the first airgun to copy that firearm either.

For $715 I sure hope they fixed the issue with the probe grub screw Perhaps they have a better fix than a different screw.

[oldpro]

 No different than The Priest in my opinion but when I said that everyone jumped all over me. Go figure

[Tomg]

Its a little more blatant than the priest, not by much though.

[triggertreat]

If they made their own gun based on their own unique concepts then they could hold their heads high and be proud.  It's ok in my book to look at other designs for inspirational purposes in an effort to come up with your own.  It doesn't appear like that is what they're doing to me in the videos, but I could be wrong.  They are a third world country and are probably doing the best they can do which is to copy/steal from the advanced countries.

I'm curious as to what type of barrels will be used in these guns.  I highly doubt it will be an FX barrel.  My guess is some sort of Chinese Marauder type barrel.  No guessing or worries with what you'll get with the WARP.  

[Rocker1]

Watched a tv documentary week ago in Columbia these guys were making real guns from near nothing way out in the boonies, they were making 45 kimber clones and you could not see the difference other than one had a serial number, took him 5 months to make one and was paid 115 bucks but by the time it reached its destination it was in the thousands because it was a untraceable gun. Its a shame but what can you do about a 3rd world country. David

[rkr]

What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately