I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
Quote from: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 07:56:33 PMI was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram.. But what did super teck use with what cal? i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:08:45 PMQuote from: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 07:56:33 PMI was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram.. But what did super teck use with what cal? i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fpsMike,Mick / Supertech77's piston is more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" . . . It is a .22 caliber WALTHER TALON MAGNUM ( Same as a HATSAN 125 ) .I am somewhat doubtful of the "42FPE" number, but I sure would believe 38 FPE +/- !Dave
Back in the summer he had a long 12 page thread and he said power was near 42 FPE in .22
I am looking into getting another crony to dave. hey you know that 4-1/2'' of cocking piston travel was off of my tape measure it could of been a tad more if you get to the exact measurement ?? just going by my eye sight using a tape
ok Dave what I am getting is around 52 initially, the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position i tried it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 07:41:19 PMok Dave what I am getting is around 52 initially, the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position i tried it like 16 x lol every time is a little different Hmm . . . Not "exact science" but interesting !Apparently the Hatsan gives an Initial "Mechanical Advantage" of 3:1 and a Final "Mechanical Advantage" of 5:1Given those numbers, a guesstimate of the Cocking Effort on a MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram would be:Initial Cocking Effort : 67 lbFinal Cocking Effort : 61 lbDave
Quote from: Paul68 on April 22, 2012, 08:16:04 PMQuote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:08:45 PMQuote from: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 07:56:33 PMI was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram.. But what did super teck use with what cal? i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fpsST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike. Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block? hi paul please scroll back up on this page I address the piston weight and what I didthanks
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:08:45 PMQuote from: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 07:56:33 PMI was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram.. But what did super teck use with what cal? i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fpsST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike. Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?
well with that info Dave I hope moller puch will say sure send the m 90 125 red pistons back and for a smal fee we can add more Iam thinking dave 30 % more what do you think, i thought maybe 35 % but iam not sure
I was hoping since you guys were trying to get accurate results and know exactly what was going on, you'd have weighed the parts.
You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change. As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet. I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.
I like to know if the wfh has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out the quattro trigger
Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change. As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet. I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort. Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.Hope you guys get it ironed out.
I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 05:28:56 AM I like to know if the wfh has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out the quattro triggerHow much preload do you have on the gas spring? If it is too much, the sear may not be getting full lockup each time. And how deep is the "divot"?33% efficiency and 5 FPE/CI are the normal numbers that you can get. And you got them. More is possible but your numbers are right in line with what I would expect from dropping a gas spring in an otherwise stock airgun.When you want to push beyond those number, the next thing that you need to look at is the piston seal. I recommend an o-ring piston seal if you want to push it.
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 10:53:56 PMI will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more addedMike,A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.Dave
hows is it on the shot copared to the spring? If it feels better I might consider it.
Quote from: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 10:59:16 PMQuote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 10:53:56 PMI will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more addedMike,A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.Dave then what I need to ask them to do is se if we can get what a 155 bar? I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol