K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
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K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
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Topic: K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers (Read 11760 times))
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
«
on:
February 20, 2016, 01:13:05 PM »
Gap adjustment completed during assembly/mockup. preload externally adjustable. cut one ear off of wingnut, the other end rides in the unused cocking pin slot of the qb tube. can use original qb spring if desired.
looks like a simple rva, except turning counter clockwise increases preload.
only a drill and hacksaw required for simple fabrication steps.
«
Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 12:42:35 PM by mackeral5
»
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Lake Harding AL
SpiralGroove
Ruminating Perfectionist !!!
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 7200
>The gun's gotta look good and shoot straight ->
Real Name: Kirk
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #1 on:
February 20, 2016, 01:16:15 PM »
Cool Mike
,
What kind of results have you gotten?
Kirk
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Bothell, WA
PCP's:
AR2079A-HPA (.177)
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rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
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Posts: 26958
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Real Name: Bob
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #2 on:
February 20, 2016, 01:19:06 PM »
I LOVE IT !!!.... Well done, Mike !!!.... Do you use the stock QB hammer spring?.... How do you adjust the gap between the washer at the end of the spring and the back of the hammer?....
Bob
«
Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:20:49 PM by rsterne
»
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
Austringer
Plinker
Posts: 277
yes
Real Name: Troy
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #3 on:
February 20, 2016, 01:30:03 PM »
That is fantastic Mackeral5. I love simplicity...and junk drawer parts builds. Can’t wait for my next QB to come in the mail. I figure by the time it gets here, Bob will have presented whatever questions necessary to resolve any issues or potential issues your design may have. This forum is simply incredible. I know it’s just a pellet gun, but I feel like I’m living “with” the cutting edge of innovation. Wish I had the tools and time to contribute!
Totally addicted
Troy
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Redding, CA
Benjamin Discovery, 22
Benjamin Marauder, 25
QB78, inverted Ninja tank, 22, 30+fpe
QB78, 2” plenum, Ninja tank, 22, 30 fpe
QB79, Ninja tank, SSG, 22, 29 fpe
Discovery Bullpup...in the works
1955 Benjamin pumper (dads gun)
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #4 on:
February 20, 2016, 01:38:00 PM »
No testing yet, but in a couple weeks I'll buy a chrony and post some numbers. Like any other SSG, tuning spring weights and preload should yield whatever results you are looking for. initially I am using a stock QB spring.
Gap is set by using the nylon lock nuts on each side of the tube cap to move the spring guide assembly towards the muzzle or butt. Note the tube cap is NOT tapped for the spring guide.
cutting off the rear part of the hammer off, right at the sear engagement ring gives a little more room to work with. I guess this lightened the hammer by maybe 1/4-3/8 ounce.
the forward nut is a milspec thread deforming type of lockout with red lock tight added so it never moves. this nut was chosen due to the locking style and small diameter, which requires no modification to slide into the hammer with no drag. the washer rests against the hammer and is what pushes the spring back when cocking.
thanks for the compliment Bob. I've learned a lot from this community, hopefully sharing this idea will give a little back.
«
Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:43:56 PM by mackeral5
»
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Lake Harding AL
Austringer
Plinker
Posts: 277
yes
Real Name: Troy
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #5 on:
February 20, 2016, 01:52:13 PM »
So do I understand this correctly, the threaded rod is fixed (after adjustment) and protrudes into the hammer and the spring and washer are the only thing that moves? Looks like you have an aluminum tube between the spring and the threaded rod as a guide? Or am I all messed up?
Troy
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Redding, CA
Benjamin Discovery, 22
Benjamin Marauder, 25
QB78, inverted Ninja tank, 22, 30+fpe
QB78, 2” plenum, Ninja tank, 22, 30 fpe
QB79, Ninja tank, SSG, 22, 29 fpe
Discovery Bullpup...in the works
1955 Benjamin pumper (dads gun)
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #6 on:
February 20, 2016, 02:30:42 PM »
Troy, your comments about how it functions are correct. The tubing is actually brass.
all parts with exception to the crosman end cap and adjustment knob were purchased through mcmaster carr. the end cap was bought from alchemy, I think it was like $6 or so. the knob was an eBay purchase, a search for 1/4 knob will yield a ton of options. a piece of tygon fuel line acts as a bushing between the knob and 10/32 spring guide.
initial testing shows that a minimum preload setting I still have too much preload. I may cut a coil or two off of the qb spring or try a lighter spring. I am expecting to have the ability to go from low power, maybe 500-600 fps or so at minimum preload to whatever the max is for the gun. Right now it is shooting far too hard at minimum preload.....
«
Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 11:36:59 AM by mackeral5
»
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Lake Harding AL
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
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Posts: 26958
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #7 on:
February 20, 2016, 03:54:00 PM »
If you can find a spring, using a lighter spring (smaller wire) will yield a given amount of power with less cocking force.... That is one of the benefits of the SSG.... but to take full advantage you have to find the correct spring for the job....
Bob
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #8 on:
February 20, 2016, 04:00:27 PM »
Made a spring change and now I have some range of adjustment, based on holdover when shooting my 75 yard gong- an old hoe head hammered into a tree.
I don't have many spare stock qb springs so I didn't want to cut any of them up. an .041 x 5/16 x 3 spring was used, minus six coils. Now I can use preload and make significant changes in point of impact. Max power seems to be close to where it was before, and with slight preload adjustments I can slow things down, conserving air in the process. I think I need to get a spring somewhere around .035 wire size and should have the ability to make more gradual adjustments.
At least for the time being there is no real need to tear into the gun for the narrow term and I can go back to plinking. will likely order another batch of springs to test with next week.
It's getting time for me to invest in a chrony so I can start tuning.
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Lake Harding AL
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26958
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #9 on:
February 20, 2016, 05:11:00 PM »
You don't want to reduce the preload force too much, or you will start losing the debouncing effect.... I wouldn't go much below 3 lbs. as a minimum when uncocked.... If you need less velocity, that is where increasing the gap comes in.... but that requires disassembly in your design.... You are adjusting the preload to change velocity.... I fix the preload and adjust the gap.... It is very sensitive, requiring little change for a wide range of velocity.... Most of my guns work out to about 1 flat (1/6 turn) per 10-20 fps....
Bob
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
wll2506
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 4083
yes
Real Name: William
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #10 on:
February 20, 2016, 05:17:13 PM »
Mike, that looks very clean, I love it, congrats ;- )
wll
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Ca.
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #11 on:
February 21, 2016, 11:34:33 AM »
Thanks Will.
Bob, I really appreciate the feedback. when you said that you tune with gap vs preload it made my head spin a bit- that is the easiest type of qb to make if one is willing to set preload during assembly. That was the way my first ssg worked, I just didn't have a good spring to use at the time.
I ordered some 5/16 x .035 x 3 springs to test with next weekend.
I can say without a doubt that the SSG has allowed for much greater efficiency than a simple rva. Using my totally unscientific method of measuring velocity via holdover at 75 yards I am seeing upwards of 80 shots before dropping off reg on my 13 ci bottles whereas with just an rva it was more like 40-50 shots.
Previously I attempted to manage hammer bounce with the tygon hose over the valve stem method. It seemed to work well, however the hose I used wasn't very stable-- when Temps were in the 30's or lower it took a few more turns on the rva than say when Temps were above 70.
I look forward to Temps getting into the 70's, then I will get to see how the gun performs on 12 gram cartridges and bulk fill co2. This particular qb serves as my test mule, and is designed to run on hpa and co2, depending on the time of year.
«
Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 11:41:48 AM by mackeral5
»
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Lake Harding AL
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #12 on:
February 23, 2016, 07:08:16 PM »
The .035 springs were a bust. way too light, not worth the effort of installing.
I've put a few hundred pellets through the test mule since installing this version of an SSG, and so far I'm happy with the results. I have about 7.5 turns of adjustment (10/32 spring guide.) I sighted in at 20 yards, with max preload then dialed down to minimum preload and saw about 5 inches of drop. Shot count at the highest setting is about 70 shots, backing off by 1 turn allows for around 85 before falling off the regulator.
Power/efficiency wise I'll likely leave it alone until I buy a chronograph. I may try to make up some form of depinger as this gun has always had a different sound when compared to my qb79. A somewhat annoying, strange pitched bell like sound. At first I thought it may be the hammer spring and I almost put some heavy tar on it like you would on a springer. After various board searches it appears to be pinging due to the longer air tube than the qb79?
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Lake Harding AL
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #13 on:
February 26, 2016, 09:16:52 PM »
Well my chronograph arrived today, however I still don't have any numbers to post. Apparently they don't work well at night, lol. ,Will see how it does tomorrow, I may have to make a run for some supplies to make up a light kit- I watched ggiles' youtube video on the cheap led lights, so I may do something similar.
I did spend about an hour polishing out the inside of my hammer to remove all of the machining marks- I'm sure this wasn't helping accuracy/ consistency as the inside of the hammer was HORRIBLE. To the point where I think this is one of the first areas a new qb owner should focus their efforts. Also polished the outside to a nice 600 grit finish and lubed everything up with TSI301, one of my favorite lubricants.
While I had everything apart I upgraded my bolt probe orings to a -005 polyurethane oring and now the bolt handle doesn't move at all when taking a shot.
Hopefully tomorrow I can post my first chrony string.
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Lake Harding AL
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG
«
Reply #14 on:
February 27, 2016, 12:31:06 PM »
After a few more adjustments and running several of my guns across the chrony, I finally have a shot string to share.
This string is at max preload, with approximately .040 gap. Later in the day I will run a string at minimum preload to see what the far extremes are. The gun came off regulator somewhere around shot 46 I believe. Chrony was around 5' from muzzle. 13ci tank
«
Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 12:35:54 PM by mackeral5
»
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Lake Harding AL
Hobbyman2007
N.U.A.H. Expert
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3011
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Real Name: Denis
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
«
Reply #15 on:
February 27, 2016, 01:10:19 PM »
Quick question, what pressure is your regulator set at? To calculate the efficiency we also need the start and end pressure on the tank .
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Dowling,Ontario, Canada
I like air guns ,and they like me
mackeral5
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3343
yes
Real Name: Mike D
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
«
Reply #16 on:
February 27, 2016, 01:13:47 PM »
it's at the top of the sheet. 1350 reg, 2300 start, 1150 end. 13ci tank, 50 shots.
thanks!
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Lake Harding AL
Hobbyman2007
N.U.A.H. Expert
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3011
yes
Real Name: Denis
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
«
Reply #17 on:
February 27, 2016, 01:45:28 PM »
Those are descent numbers , I wasn't able to get much better than what you're getting until I removed some weight from the hammer. I went from 60grams to 41 grams ,instantly gained 40 shots. I've got mine tuned to 20fpe.
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Dowling,Ontario, Canada
I like air guns ,and they like me
rsterne
Member 2000+fps Club
Bob and Lloyd
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 26958
GTA Forums Person of the Year 2017
Real Name: Bob
Re: K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers
«
Reply #18 on:
February 27, 2016, 04:34:57 PM »
1275 FPE total..... 1150/14.5 = 79 bar x 13 CI = 1031 CI total.... 1.24 FPE/CI efficiency.... Pretty decent....
Bob
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
wll2506
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 4083
yes
Real Name: William
With the mods were you expecting more from your '78 ?
«
Reply #19 on:
February 27, 2016, 08:05:54 PM »
Gives me info on what to expect from my mods...my '79 is being bad right now :-( I hope my '78 will give me 27-30 fpe !
wll
«
Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 08:35:46 PM by wll
»
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Ca.
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K.I.S.S. QB SSG Finally added chrony numbers