GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => American/U.S. Air Gun Gates => Crosman-Benjamin Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: gene_sc on September 30, 2010, 07:24:20 PM
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Ok guys who own the Benjamin NP Trail gas ram Air Rifles..... I am thinking of putting together a kit to upgrade the durability and longevity of the NP Trail. And depending on my R&D this may also be applied to the Crosman Titan.
As most of you know I bought a Benjamin NP Trail early this year and did a complete tear down and mod to the piston, and ram. The issue was that when most of them are new they cock like butter but once the everything loosens up the ram starts to rub and scrape on one side of the inner piston. Also the ram shaft is not centered at front of piston securely. Crosman has taken the standard springer pistons from other springer production models and merely drilled a small dimple inside front of piston for the ram shaft to sit. It is a shallow dimple.
I was thinking of making a mod kit that will address these issues and keep your NP's with a smooth cocking and shooting cycle. It also addresses the longevity of the ram itself.
Shadow has been putting my moded original Benjamin NP Trail to the test since he took her home with him.
So my question is: Would there be any one interested in such a mod kit?
Gene
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I have a couple of questions. Would this be a DIY? How much would you charge for the mod?
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Yes it would be a do it yourself mod. Cost has not been determined yet but I would guess it would be under $30.00. Depends on cost of materials and shipping.
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I'm in for 2 of them, getting a .25 soon ;D
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For that price, I would be interested.
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I would definitely be interested too. Got the Titan also.
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Count me in as well Gene.
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10-4 on that!
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I would be interested as well. Mine doesn't seem to have any problems at the moment, but it is only a couple of months
in service so far. I would also like a book or manual about servicing and upgrading for the Trail NP. Is it possible to
put a more powerful gas ram in it for increased velocity and fpe, or is it something more complicated than that?
I have some predator "Big-Boy" pointed in 26.2 grain, and would like to be able to shoot those with a bit more 'smack'
at longer distances.
Maybe a kit to do complete tear-down and servicing as well?
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The Mod Kit that brother Gene speaks of would be a super upgrade to the Benji Gas ram's. I own one of his tune kit Benji's and you may not notice it when shooting your Benji gas ram but that gas ram is rubbing in there on the ram cylinder. We had my NP apart and could clearly see where it had been rubbing and any kind of action like that from a ram can rob your shooter of possibly more power and a smoother firing cycle. If one thinks that the ram is keeping itself centered in the piston it's not and Genes kit will fix the problem. Ed
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I'm interested
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I'm in.
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I'm in if the price is right.
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I can hear a squek in my trail when I break the barrel, is that what your talking about shadow?
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gene, you have a new mission in life. And another reason for the wife to ask "What are you doing now?"
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Gene, would this be applicable/necessary in the Remington NPSS series?
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i can hear mine rubbing when i break the barrel and cock it. it just started a few weeks ago. after about 2000-3000 rounds. Do you really think that this mod kit would potentially add much more power? I guess it would make sense. I wonder just how much power we are talking...and would there be a kit that is compatible for the XL models as well? or is it the same kit? Either way, I'M IN. especially for that price. You guys should run a test on a regular trail NP, and an XL, before and after the kit is installed, to SHOW the gains in both accuracy and power. Not that I don't think it would make a difference, because I really think that it certainly would, but It would most definetly help the kit to be a MUST HAVE. just a thought...Very innovative though. It's people like you that make this sport/hobby as exciting as it is!
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It's more about a smooth transition during the cocking and firing stroke then gaining a bunch more power. The kit removes the slop around the ram so to speak it can perform smoother without binding against the ID of the piston you get drag you loose power. Ed
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would installation be available to those who choose not to do it themselves?
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Great Gene,,if this will fit my XL 1100 I'm in for one 100% and Thanks!
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I too am interested Mr.Gene if your kit would work on the XL's also? Is this the piece you fitted too the front of the ram on your's? If it work's on them count me in too. I noticed some slight mark's on mine when it was tuned an would like to stop the rubbing.
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well im not one of these guys that is ALL ABOUT gaining a bunch of power....It seems that most professional type airgunners don't like to see people inquire about that for some reason, and look at it as a kind of amateur and less than mature type of thought...I was just curious what type of gains you are expecting, because shadow mensioned it thats all. It just seems to me that if the ram is dragging against the ID of the piston, you would lose a significant amount of power. If I was concerned with gaining a bunch of power I would buy an xl, or would just go to pcp's and lose the springers all together. I do appreciate a smooth firing, and cocking cycle, as well as more consistant accuracy. don't get me wrong. I was just curious. It's exciting to me.
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This mod is strictly for longevity of ram, smoother shooting and cocking cycles. It will eliminate wear on vital parts of the power plant. This mod is not intended for higher fps nor fpe. Being in the tuning business for a while and what I have learned in the past from Bob Werner aka CharlieDaTune has given me much insight on how air guns/springers/barrel cockers...:) work and operate. Also the limitations and expectations of an air gun. The fact that you get to the point where you know what improvements can be made to make an air gun more fun and reliable to shoot.
This mod will not be ready until after November. Parts will need to be manufactured prior to releasing the kits. Also there will be detailed instructions on the details of installation. This mod can only be performed if you have a spring compressor and are willing to take down your NP. Many of the manufactured air guns have issues with seals being cut during manufacturing and at this point if one wanted to change out their seals it would be the right time to install the mod.
Be patient my friends and we will get this done..
Gene
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I'd like one if it can be installed in an XL. I think they have plenty of power, but it would be great if it helped with consistency and longevity.
pv
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I don't own one,,,,,,,,,,,yet. But, after seeing what a turbo tune can do for an off the shelf air rifle, count me in. I plan to own the Remington NPSS at some point next year. (maybe at Christmas!)
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I imagine if Gene makes up these kit's for the NP's I will include them in my tuning selections. Ed
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i had the chance to shoot a titan tuned by a east coast tuner and boy oh boy... I need one. Absolutely, if it is available is worth getting. i am in.
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I have a titan that I got when they first came out I tuned it and replaced the seal before I ever shot it and it still shoots 720s, I read on here about all the trouble everyone has had with them but mine has been trouble free, the titan is a trail np just a cheap version no scope rail or shroud but basically the same ag. Thanks David
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Gene does the NPSS experience this same issue? If so I'm in can you work with Bob to do a package deal with a CBR?
Andy
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Andy
The NPSS only needs deburing and a bit of moly on outer ram body and some 30 wt silicone lube on the ram shaft itself. It is one heck of a well made air rifle. Three things that need to be looked at on the NPSS. 1. Inside back of piston where seer slot is and cocking slot. This should be debured and should be smoothed out a bit with emery cloth and wooden dowel with your drill motor or lathe. 2. Most come from factory with seals that have been nicked up. These should be replaced. 3. I would suggest a cross hatch on the tube if possible to capture some lube for seal.
Of course there are many other thiings that a pro tuner would do besides those three things but the 3 I mentioned are the most important.
Gene
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Amen...
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*Not thread jacking… I’ll start my own about this very elusive issue*
I would be interested as well. Mine doesn't seem to have any problems at the moment, but it is only a couple of months
in service so far. I would also like a book or manual about servicing and upgrading for the Trail NP. Is it possible to
put a more powerful gas ram in it for increased velocity and fpe, or is it something more complicated than that?
You guys should run a test on a regular trail NP, and an XL, before and after the kit is installed, to SHOW the gains in both accuracy and power. Not that I don't think it would make a difference, because I really think that it certainly would, but It would most definetly help the kit to be a MUST HAVE. just a thought...Very innovative though. It's people like you that make this sport/hobby as exciting as it is!
I have some predator "Big-Boy" pointed in 26.2 grain, and would like to be able to shoot those with a bit more 'smack'
at longer distances.
Maybe a kit to do complete tear-down and servicing as well?
You know... I totally agree 100% with the insinuation that tuner's seem to refuse to speak on the whole gas-ram swap-out... BUT thanks to some serious frustration and searching, I've come across this exact issue being explored, debated, then suddenly white-washed away and never come to fruition (afaik)?
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php?action=printpage;topic=15969.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php?action=printpage;topic=15969.0)
A small excerpt:
Title: HOW-TO: Air-Venturi Installation Procedure
Post by: CO_AirGunner on April 27, 2009, 03:08:50 PM
Well, I was finally able to get the Air-Venturi gas [also $109.99] ram installed in my Gamo Whisper over the weekend.
One interesting (shady) thing to ponder; let’s quickly break down the price of a Titan-GP (the runt of the litter) ~$150@ Wally’s… But the Crosman NPSS ram kit is ~$109.99… That means the gas-ram ALONE (okay some labor)… So you’re telling me the REST of the gun; stock, barrel, SCOPE (which comes with it) and misc metal components are a totaling $40.01? HAHA Just something to ponder about Crosman, hmmm?
…Anyhow I would certainly be IN for getting a the kit/conditioning (thanks Gene_SC) that these guns OUGHT to come standard with , what the heck?!
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One interesting (shady) thing to ponder; let’s quickly break down the price of a Titan-GP (the runt of the litter) ~$150@ Wally’s… But the Crosman NPSS ram kit is ~$109.99… That means the gas-ram ALONE (okay some labor)… So you’re telling me the REST of the gun; stock, barrel, SCOPE (which comes with it) and misc metal components are a totaling $40.01? HAHA Just something to ponder about Crosman, hmmm?
Crosman now has parts available for the NPSS. I called them and asked how much for a replacement gas ram and they said $26.
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Crosman is generally known for having some of the fairest parts pricing, and best parts documentation and availability, in the business.
Pricing to market is not new or unique to Crosman or airguns. The Wally Titan has some cut corners in materials (and a lower labor rate) and is both designed and priced to compete with Gamo in that venue, for the retail shopper. Doesn't make them bad, and certainly not shady. Lots of experienced AG shooters jumped on 'em just to get a bargain ram gun, and soup them up.
The Rem and Benjie rams are sold through different channels to more educated buyers with higher expectations. The Rem NPSS uses American labor, and superior materials, and is also priced against its competition. Note also that distribution makes or breaks your product, and distributors push the lines most profitable to sell. Manufacturers who miss that point don't get very far.
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One interesting (shady) thing to ponder; let’s quickly break down the price of a Titan-GP (the runt of the litter) ~$150@ Wally’s… But the Crosman NPSS ram kit is ~$109.99… That means the gas-ram ALONE (okay some labor)… So you’re telling me the REST of the gun; stock, barrel, SCOPE (which comes with it) and misc metal components are a totaling $40.01? HAHA Just something to ponder about Crosman, hmmm?
Crosman now has parts available for the NPSS. I called them and asked how much for a replacement gas ram and they said $26.
I would like to know who you talked to at Crosman about the NPSS rams. I called and they said they were not available for sale yet.
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I would like to know who you talked to at Crosman about the NPSS rams. I called and they said they were not available for sale yet.
Gene I spoke to Jan or Kim I forget which one but the parts are available for the Remington NPSS. The part number for the gas ram is ELS-012.
Look at the parts diagram here:
http://www.crosman.com/pdf/manuals/RNP77-RNP22%20NITRO%20EVP.pdf (http://www.crosman.com/pdf/manuals/RNP77-RNP22%20NITRO%20EVP.pdf)
http://www.crosman.com/airguns/service/manuals/remington (http://www.crosman.com/airguns/service/manuals/remington)
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Thank Perry, I will contact Crosman again tomorrow. Seems Kim is off today so I will wait and give her the part numbers tomorrow to order.
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Gene, will you just be selling the kit or would you consider installing it and tuning the Trial too, if sent to you ?
Just saying that since I have no idea how to work on a rifle and really don't trust myself.
Thanks
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Gene, will you just be selling the kit or would you consider installing it and tuning the Trial too, if sent to you ?
Just saying that since I have no idea how to work on a rifle and really don't trust myself.
Thanks
I am interested in the answer to this also.
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Gene, will you just be selling the kit or would you consider installing it and tuning the Trial too, if sent to you ?
Just saying that since I have no idea how to work on a rifle and really don't trust myself.
Thanks
I am interested in the answer to this also.
Yes I will be selling the mod kist and also I talked to Ed aka Shadow who has taken over my tuning business and also worked with me on this mod this summer. He will be installing them for those who do not want to. He also will have them in stock for tune requests etc. He also has the recipe for the proper lubes for the gas ram which are not all the same as a regular springer. I do not know what the final cost will be but as soon as the R&D with the machinist is done I should have a good number. I want to keep these as cheap as possible. Really do not intend to get rich with this mod...:) Just passing it along for those who want the best performance from their NP's and Titans.
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Gene, will you just be selling the kit or would you consider installing it and tuning the Trial too, if sent to you ?
Just saying that since I have no idea how to work on a rifle and really don't trust myself.
Thanks
I am interested in the answer to this also.
Yes I will be selling the mod kist and also I talked to Ed aka Shadow who has taken over my tuning business and also worked with me on this mod this summer. He will be installing them for those who do not want to. He also will have them in stock for tune requests etc. He also has the recipe for the proper lubes for the gas ram which are not all the same as a regular springer. I do not know what the final cost will be but as soon as the R&D with the machinist is done I should have a good number. I want to keep these as cheap as possible. Really do not intend to get rich with this mod...:) Just passing it along for those who want the best performance from their NP's and Titans.
Great, so we get in touch with Ed for the Installation/tune,...one more question, can i get the nitro piston put in my Super Streak ?
Thanks
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NP you can get in touch with Dave on here ezman604 He is a mod on here to . He has replaced the spring in his super streak with a ram and had a shroud made for it I am sure he will tell you what you need to do it. Thanks David heres a link to some of Daves modifications http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,675.msg4601.html#msg4601 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,675.msg4601.html#msg4601)
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Please keep us informed as to when this mod will be available. Thank you
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I'd be very interested in purchasing this mod when it becomes available. Thanks!
Regards,
Duber
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I picked up a new Titan GP on Friday. Saturday I tore her down. I then made the tool needed to hold the bushings so I could machine them. I think I will initially make a run on the parts myself and if enough folks want the kits I will turn production over to the C&C Machinest.
The guide washer at bottom of piston keeps the shaft stable through compressiona and decompression cycle. The bushing keeps the outer housing in center of piston.
The following is my second prototype. My first one was done on an NP Trail.
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When you do a run Mr.Gene place one on order for me, I'm interested in the idea in my XL if you think it will fit?
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Looks good Gene. What material are the guide washer and bushing going to be made of?
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All material used is Delrin. A very hard and tough plastic material. Used also for spring guides.
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When you do a run Mr.Gene place one on order for me, I'm interested in the idea in my XL if you think it will fit?
Not sure it would work on the XL's. Not until I have one in my hands..:) I am in not hurry to play with a magnum yet...:)
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Mr.Gene if the price is not too high on your production run I will test it for you an let you know, so still keep me on your list of buyer's/wanter this November. Hey if it does not work I'll just raffle it to our member's on here who have a gun it will work in.
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Someone say test airguns ? hehehe. ;D Ed
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When you do a run Mr.Gene place one on order for me, I'm interested in the idea in my XL if you think it will fit?
Not sure it would work on the XL's. Not until I have one in my hands..:) I am in not hurry to play with a magnum yet...:)
Do you want me to send you my XL so you can play with it and do some testing ? :) :)
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No this particular kits Gene is makeing will not fit the xls because the ram and the piston are bigger but a kit for them would be most likely the same just bigger parts he will have mine shortly guys so hold your taters lol. Thanks David
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When you do a run Mr.Gene place one on order for me, I'm interested in the idea in my XL if you think it will fit?
Not sure it would work on the XL's. Not until I have one in my hands..:) I am in not hurry to play with a magnum yet...:)
Do you want me to send you my XL so you can play with it and do some testing ? :) :)
Thanks but David has volunteered to let me play with his XL.
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I would buy one.
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I have a new unfired XL 1100. Waiting on my GRT III trigger before using. I would purchase this mod if it works for this model. Been shooting springers since the 70's. First gas ram. Only taken apart one springer 30 years ago, so I hope you have good details for this mod. Thanks in advance for this mod kit.
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I'm definitely interested, just wondering the rough price range.
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I just bought a Benj NP. I installed the tuna trigger after being very disappointed with the factory trigger. Extremely pleased with the new trigger. What a difference. I am very interested in this new mod for the piston, but I have a question. Will availability be shown to only those who reply to this thread, or will a new thread be started showing that the mod is available? I would be one of those who would probably send the rifle, or at least the rifle sans stock in, to be modified. I don't have a spring compressor, nor even know where to get one, as this is my first airgun.
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Just found this forum. WOW! i am definitely interested in this kit.
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i would be extremely interested if you have an upgrade kit, i actually have the all weather stock version but its detune by Canadian law.....only shoots 495 fps with .22
please help....
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Hey Gene, Im new to this site, but just bought a Benjamin Trail NP .22 cal. and Ive got that squeak sound when I bring down the barrel. Its had it from day one, is this kit available yet? Couse Im in to purchase this kit, if its around $30 or so !!!!
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That squeaking should stop after a lot of use
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I would be in for a couple
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is any one selling the brass barrel bushing?
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found some brass washers at ace hardware,had to grind the out side down to fit but the thickness was only .002 different, cut some grease gruves in them seam to work good.
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I may need as well someday. I have a question for you experienced AG guys. I just started re-living my childhood and purchased an XL1500. Once I got on this great site I learned I needed to shoot up 500 rounds before my gun would break in. I have several style pellets out of it. I am very happy with Gamo Rockets and getting 1/2" groups at 20 yds and 3/4" at 30yds. And before you say it I already ordered a trigger. Did I just get lucky with this gun or should I expect these groups to open some?
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No, hopefully, they should actually tighten up for you. But the unfortunate thing with these is that most of these take from 500-1000 rounds to really start to show their colors, not that it's not fun along the way, but you're burning $ to get there and then you will start to find the perfect pellet. It's a process.
pv
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Thanks, Love this forum and I am turning into a AG junkie quick. I have 4 other pellets coming from Pyramid. I will then shoot a variety over the Chronograph and see what happens. I am an avid archery shooter and have plenty of experience there and " burning Powder" but this way cheaper to shoot.
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Certainly an easy to take fix for the winter doldrums in the basement, and no better way to fix those "pesty" chores once the weather breaks!
pv
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Kits available at airguntoys.com now. Brass washers, and bushing kits
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why not I've put everything else on it!
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I am definitely going to want a kit installed...havn't decided yet if i want to acquire the tools to do it myself...exactly how to perform the steps is still a little fuzzy...research in progress!
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Ordered ......... thanks Gene!!
Best regards,
Gary
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Ordered.
Thanks for the heads up
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I just came across this thread is this kit available? If so I would like to order one.
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I just came across this thread is this kit available? If so I would like to order one.
available at airguntoys.com
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At that price count me in. 8)
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Is there anyone in Canada that is distributing this?
Border regs have gotten stupid about anything gun related of late.
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I have the NPSS and can see the exact same thing so if you can make the kit applicable to the NPSS I am in for one.
Thanks.
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The NP Bushing kits will not work on the NPSS. You need to take the NPSS appart and remove burrs off inside of piston and emery cloth the area real good to remove ridges. You should be good to go if you follow that process and lube the outer ram with a bit of moly. You will have no more rubbing or dragging.
The NP Washer kits will work for the breec/barrel though.
Gene
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Mr Gene,
I am interested when a kit is developed for the XL. I have a .25 cal and I would be willing to help test a prototype for the XL, if needed. Thank you for your time and expertise in the development of these kits. After all I know I want a gun that works and shoots well with the minimum of problems. I think these kits will be a great mod.
Glenn
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There is a kit now for the Trail NP -XL.
http://www.airguntoys.com/NP-GRS-XL_files/NP-GRS-XL.htm (http://www.airguntoys.com/NP-GRS-XL_files/NP-GRS-XL.htm)
Gene
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I went ahead and did what you said and it is better. I will order the washer kit.
Thanks.
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Gene,
Yea you are right, I already bought a bushing and the brass washers, just have not had the time to put it in. I will prob do it tomorrow because I developed a dieseling problem and need to tear it down anyhow and fix that too. Any quick fixes for the dieseling besides piston seal replacement (I already purchased a new one seal from Crosman) and a lube tune? I'm just asking so I can get everything done at once.
As always...thank you,
Glenn
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Gene,
I would be interested also as I would like my NP to be up to date with all the mods.
Work on the trigger too.
Larry
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Ok so am I the only one here that sees an opportunity here to make the Tuna trigger part of this package? Seems to me since you are both in SC and ordering a Tuna trigger is a snail mail rigamarole, that you two should partner up and offer this kit with the trigger. It would increase sales of the trigger by making it easier to buy online........Not that Charlie is looking for more sales but it would make the trigger more available to those of us who need them. Just a thought....I own a grtIII and it truly transformed my crosman np but I got it from a friend who had a spare because I probably would have been too lazy to go get a money order....