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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => China/Asian AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Bryan Heimann on March 08, 2012, 01:31:45 AM

Title: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 08, 2012, 01:31:45 AM
I was looking at my coke can with over 100 pellets through the same 1.25" hole spread horizontally (most from 30 yards) and thought well, spread's horizontal- why?  Pretty darn accurate gun, but must be the plastic washers making my spread horizontal, right?  WRONG!  It's NO WASHERS!  I was pretty peeved by this.  There is a raised area that is smooth on the sides of the barrel near the breech where the washers would normally go.  I just happened to have a couple of brass washers from Gene's tunes and toys laying around, and they match up perfectly with the raised area.  So, what to do?  I just very, very carefully cut the plastic out along the edges of the raised area with my razor-sharp Buck lockblade!  Gotta use the right tool for the job!  .  Beneath that plastic shroud is all metal, and the plastic i removed was just a hair thinner than the thickness of those brass washers.  They popped right in- a perfect, snug fit.  And the barrel fit just perfectly snug back into the compression tube.  Now my lockup is noticeably more solid.  Re-zeroed at 7.5 yards in my garage and then stacked 5 Kodiaks in a hole about the same diameter as a pellet off-hand, no problem.  Sorry no pics, it's passed midnight and I gotta work in the morning.  I just couldn't stand looking at that can, knowing that I have laying around something that might cut my 30 yard groups in half, and not doing anything about it.  Btw I broke down- the GRT-III is coming in the mail!  This is the 3rd GRT-III trigger I've purchased- worth every penny! I put one on every airgun I buy that fits it!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Donny on March 08, 2012, 01:45:06 AM
sounds like you came through under pressure, dont you hate it when you cant let something go and need to address it right away
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2012, 02:47:48 AM
I read the whole thing and have no idea what you're talking about..
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 08, 2012, 09:22:07 AM
Lambchops- The X20 has a solid steel barrel and breech block.  The Suppressor model's barrel and breech block is also steel, but with the exception of the breech block face it is completely shrouded in plastic.  In the breech block of the regular X20, there are plastic washers on each side of the bolt hole.  In the Suppressor model, instead of inlets with washers, there is a raised circular area molded into the plastic around the bolt hole to fit the end of the compression tube.  In order to install good brass washers, you have to cut the plastic out to fit them.  By installing brass washers, you get a noticeably tighter and more consistent lockup which improves accuracy.  You could also probably just shim it, but i PROMISE you that the plastic beneath the shims still flexes.  You might not notice it, but it's happening. Without brass washers, you X20 will never be as accurate as it could be.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Lambchops on March 08, 2012, 05:58:23 PM
Hmm, mine locks up fine, so i'm not worried, but thanks I understand now.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 08, 2012, 06:08:13 PM
Mine was fine, too- but now it's better.  This X20 is my baby, my #1 airgun- so I'm gonna milk every last drop of performance out of her that i can get!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Dick Tracey on March 08, 2012, 07:38:22 PM
I thought I had your No 1 gun (Grin).  Oh I guess it is your OLD NO 1 Gun.   Good work on the X20S.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 08, 2012, 07:43:06 PM
Yep, that is my old #1.  Let me know if you ever get tired of her, I'll buy her back!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: thekid on March 08, 2012, 07:44:34 PM
Without brass washers, you X20 will never be as accurate as it could be.

You got that right.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Johnny Z on March 08, 2012, 09:21:16 PM
Thanks for the information, attached is one of Gene's X20s teardown photos (thanks Gene), where I think I highlighted the raised plastic areas mentioned.  When I did my tune, I thought those were plastic washers and just really hard to remove or glued/staked in some how.   Thats another part to look at for her next tear down.  :o

John
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 08, 2012, 09:35:18 PM
Thanks for posting that picture!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: jreinhardt on March 09, 2012, 09:30:37 PM
Bryan,

Is there a metal recess or lip that will hold the bronze washer after you have cutout the "plastic washer"? Or is it critical to carefully cutout the "plastic washer" and the new hole becomes the only lateral support and locator for the new metal bushing/washer?

Thanks in advance for your insights and help.

John
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 09, 2012, 10:18:35 PM
No lip that I noticed, but there is a steel sleeve of sorts that slides inside the bolt hole, slightly larger in length than the width of the metal breech block but not large enough to fit the brass washers tightly.  It will keep the washers from covering the bolt holes when you are putting the barrel back on, which is all you really need to worry about.  If you fudge cutting the holes a little, it probably won't matter.  I cut mine perfect to fit though.  That way the brass washers "popped" in, nice and tight =D
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Mike 4888blues on March 09, 2012, 10:38:57 PM
   ::) you think by now company's  would  use  brass washers. I guess  its always going to be that way , some one trying to skip on quality even when it counts the most, or do they think the brass washers  would wear just as fast  hhhmmm
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 09, 2012, 10:44:09 PM
They may wear the same, who knows?  The real issue here isn't wear.  It's the way that plastic can mash and flex, and in that way, effect accuracy
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Mr. Grendel on March 09, 2012, 11:50:35 PM
I noticed the same thing when I tore mine down earlier...... A 3/4 Forster bit later and instant brass washer placement!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Mike 4888blues on March 10, 2012, 01:31:53 AM
They may wear the same, who knows?  The real issue here isn't wear.  It's the way that plastic can mash and flex, and in that way, effect accuracy
  8)  Yes That makes  sense  less flexing, and with proper lube on pivot  joints  maybe  the wear  would be very minimal thru long period of  time 
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: reddheadnla on March 10, 2012, 04:01:50 PM
I love my stoeger x20s and would like to know where to get the brass washers and what size if possible please and thank you for posting that.I want to learn as much as I can about it.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 10, 2012, 06:06:28 PM
www.airguntoys.com (http://www.airguntoys.com)
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: one_shot on March 11, 2012, 07:52:49 PM
great work bryan....cant wait to see those new groups.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 11, 2012, 09:45:52 PM
I just splurged on a sweet new scope setup for the X20S.  Tonight I'm going to break her on down and hone the compression chamber.  That is really the only thing I haven't done, and it's something I've been kind of afraid to do.  I am also going to weight the piston a little bit.  I'm waiting untill I arrive at my new hone in Texas to send my chrony in for a fix, so by then she should be broke in AGAIN for the 3rd frikken time.  If I do everything right, I believe that the gun is capable of 17 fpe and change.  When i get the chrony fixed I'll experiment with weight in the piston untill I hit the sweet spot with the Kodiaks.  The gun is a sweet shooter already, but I just can't leave well enough alone!! 
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Johnny Z on March 11, 2012, 09:55:19 PM
Bryan, What kind of scope did you get?   Looking forward to your 17fpe mods (are you adding washers to the tophat?) and details.

Thanks
John
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 11, 2012, 10:00:45 PM
Probably just going to use pennies stacked on top of it.  Older, copper pennies.  They fit perfectly.  I found that out when i broke the spring on my first X10.  I just threw away the broken piece, and spaced it up with pennies untill i had about 1/4" of preload ( just enough to hold the spring/tophat together lol).  Worked like a charm, didn't even notice a loss in power!  But the spring broke again after that, in 2 more places, before the Maccari E3650 I ordered for her arrived.  Eventually I sold it, but i miss it. With the E3650 and apex seal, that was a real, sweet shooting little gun.  Zero hold sensitivity and stacked cphp's and cpum's all day long.  These days it belongs to Dick Tracey. 

EDIT-  Almost forgot!  I picked up a new CenterPoint 4-16x40 Adventure class today at Wal-Mart.  I had one in the past, and I liked it too, but eventually traded it to a fellow GTA member.  His WFH destroyed that scope though=(  Popped the turret adjustment knob right out of place!  But these days they are built differently, with one-piece aluminum tube and some other changes.  I think it's improved overall- especially the turret adjustments.  They actually have covers now, instead of the lock-down design.  I also picked up a CenterPoint laser/flashlight combo with pressure switches at Dick's today, and they are already mated-up to that scope.  I have some BKL dovetail-to-weaver adapters coming from Pyramyd with another shipment of Kodiaks as well, so that I can take advantage of those weaver mounts that come with the scope.  Pretty sweet little set-up.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: one_shot on March 11, 2012, 11:55:48 PM
i was just talking bout that old 4-16 my wfh broke....lol.
it still holds zero though!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Johnny Z on March 12, 2012, 12:17:56 AM
I'll have to try the penny stackup.  I have a couple of the CenterPoints 4-16x40 AOs from Wally's, they work well, my only complaint is that it is really difficult to rotate the knob to change the reticle color.

thanks
John.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 12, 2012, 01:09:54 AM
I stuck them together with tar last time.  This time around it'll just be some moly, if i can ever get the dang gun apart.  Instead of making another spring compressor, I just used a irwin quick-grip bar clamp.  That tarantula almost proved too much for it during installation, and right now I'm having a really hard time trying to get it out.  Of course, i know a technique to remove it by hand but it's risky- although I've done it before i might just have to leave the spring in the gun as it is.  It's driving me nuts though!

EDIT- I've decided to err on the side of caution.  I rekon that sixteen and a half foot-pounds is enough with the venerable Kodiak pellet and it's superior BC, and besides that, the end cap is becoming more and more worn as I try to use this bar clamp.  It reached the point that it wouldn't take up slack during installation, and right now I can't get enough pressure to get the pin out of the end of the compression tube.  The internals of this girl are gonna stay as is until either I get a stronger bar clamp, or the spring breaks!  Might still be getting better power than last time I chronied it anyway-  But I won't know untill I get the chrony fixed.  I'm having trouble with my I-touch, but i got some pics of the washers and breech block on my phone so I'll try to post them later. 

AND EDIT AGAIN- Well, I just couldn't stand it! I'll not let this thing beat me!  I got her opened up.  Apparently a drop of locktite was on the pin from the bolt that holds in the trigger group, making the pin harder to tap out.  The spring isn't so bad anymore, because all that excessive pre-load is gone now that it's set.  The tune continues!  Taking pics this time around.
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Johnny Z on March 12, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
Good luck.   I thought the plastic end-cap would break apart if I put too much pressure on it, so I just bypass it. 

The Tarantula spring I have measures 12.5" (unset) compared to the stock spring (measured 9.92" set).   I have not installed it yet, but I did modify (added some L brackets for support) my spring compressor for this future mod, photos below. 

John
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 13, 2012, 02:13:24 AM
Looks like you've got a nice workshop there.  The plastic end cap handles the pressure fine, btw.  My problem was the locktite that had dripped on the retainer pin, and I kept cranking down on that bar clamp trying to get it loose.  I figured it out though, and tapped it out.  Now that it's set it's got maybe a inch or two of preload but during initial installation, oh brother!  I had a hard time doing that with a cheap bar clamp, let me tell you!
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: GARY T on March 13, 2012, 02:19:06 PM
Good stuff guy's. What is the avg FPE with the X20 now. Who can tune them?

gary
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 13, 2012, 03:40:28 PM
The suppressor seemd to be around 14 fpe.  Mine was at 16.3-16.4 last time chronied, after i tuned it.  Now I'm working on her some more.  There's no reason why you can't get 17 fpe out of the gun without doing anything too crazy, but it could come at a cost
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Johnny Z on March 13, 2012, 11:58:01 PM
@ Bryan,  thanks, the workshop is a mess, I can never find anything and after a clean up, it gets cluttered in no time.

@Gary T., my X20s is still breaking in, so my fpe is fairly low (~13 fpe). This was my first springer tune and I don't think the seal is broken in yet (a lot tighter fit than the original seal).  I think there are a few people here that can tune them, you can probably post a request and I others can comment.

John
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Bryan Heimann on March 14, 2012, 04:04:13 AM
Never too late to re-size that seal.  But it bet the shot cycle with that tight seal is very nice...
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Mike 4888blues on March 14, 2012, 04:19:01 AM
 :D
 Yes  I have to say the same I love my stoeger rifle too, it has a great feel and shape its just a neat feeling rifle, I installed the GRT 111 trigger, and tuned it, still has the original seal ,I may get a j m seal down the road possibly a different spring  maybe not. its pretty good  the way it is
Title: Re: Stoeger X20 Suppressor fatal flaw
Post by: Johnny Z on March 14, 2012, 09:48:59 PM
I like this gun also, very easy to handle and my brother-in-law wants to borrow it, could be gone for awhile.

I do think the shot cycle is nicer now, but I still wonder if I can get some of the fps back.  I've never resized a seal.  I have a 2nd JM seal that is 0.996"  (the 1st JM seal installed was 0.992") that I could use if I screw this one up.