GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: microsalmo on May 02, 2012, 05:52:30 PM
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My Hatsan Mod125 Sniper arrived this morning. After a thorough cleaning, I got busy chrony testing 12 different types of pellets. I was a little surprised to see that this gun has an entirely different personality than did the 125TH in the same caliber. After 150 shots, I am happy to report that this one too has a healthy power plant. While it didn't make quite the same power as the TH, it did manage standard deviations of less than 2fps in 10 shot strings... and did it in more style 8)
Much more to come!!
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I like 2 types of bellets so far...the H&N 19.9 gr. for great penetration in target material and the 26 gr. PolyMags for really tranferring all the energy into the target. You can hear and see the difference.
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So this isn't a comparison thread, but I have to make mention of this observation... because before I had them both in hand, I didn't realize the difference. Had I known, I may have gone straight for the Sniper. After handling them both, the 125TH does now appear to be "less" gun in terms of finishing materials. Unlike the TH, the Sniper is without any casting lines whatsoever in its polymer. This goes for both the stock and the muzzle break. Also, the Sniper shares its polymer with Hatsan's more expensive PCPs. It has a flat, rubberized texture. Where as the shiney polymer in the TH is looks little different than say the polymer stock on a $80 Corssman. This is not a criticism, just an observation that I didn't pick up on when looking at Hatsan's web site. This may illustrate what I mean...
(http://i46.tinypic.com/30uesf6.jpg)
(http://i46.tinypic.com/20zo4uw.jpg)
That all being said, my next observation may be more of a fluke than further internal refining... BUT this Sniper cocks, shoots, and trigger breaks much nicer than the TH I had. During the cocking stroke, there is ZERO noise other than the sound of an air squishing noise. It sounds a lot like one of my tuned Nitro Piston guns. It feels the same too. There is no honk, or texture of metal surfaces moving over each other. I just get a plush squish. By comparison, the TH was noisy & fraught with vibration, & spring sounds of metal moving over metal during the cocking stroke. The firing cycle in the Sniper feels just like one of my tuned riffles. I just get a deep, solid, - "snick." There is zero twang, vibration, twist, or harshness of any kind. It's almost as if someone tuned it at the plant :o. The TH had some light twang, which I would consider normal for a springer. And for some reason, the trigger is noticeably lighter on this Sniper too. I have no explanation for this. Hopefully some of you Hatsan tuners can chime in and lend a thought. Is the Sniper better finished inside?
So it wasn't all good. All that smoothness came with a 30 fps & 2-3 fpe penalty. Across the board of 12 pellets I tested, they all lost about 30 fps over those of the TH. Each one averaged about 29.5 fpe whereas with the TH, they all seemed to be in the 32-33 fpe range. I am suspecting the sound suppressor. And boy does it work! I was shocked at how much quieter the sniper seemed than the TH. Without a chrony, I would have thought the gun was malfunctioning - it was that quiet.
Anyway, here are the days test results. One thing is for sure... the power plant seems healthy. Some of these extreme spreads & standard deviations seem pretty "dang" good for a stock gun with less than 150 shots through it. There were some pellets the the barrel clearly did not favor as much.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/erlw8o.jpg)
(http://i47.tinypic.com/1549dg8.jpg)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/14nl55i.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/zim2vo.jpg)
So that's my take so far. I hope it proves helpful so someone. I'm eager to get it outside, and see how it does in the accuracy department. If it shoots tighter than .50" at 35 yards, I'll be a happy boy :D
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Nice writeup. From what I understand, looser tolerances and less attention to lube will give an increase in overall power, but at the expense of increasing vibration and wear. Sounds like the Sniper is getting more attention on the fit and finish of the internals, and better lube. Might not let the action fly around as freely, but if it means a smooth shooter that won't fly itself apart then it's probably worth it. Besides, 29fpe aint nothing to sneeze at in a springer, and a home tune might squeeze those few extra foot pounds out of it and make it even smoother.
That stock comparison is STARK. I knew the TH fit and finish was poor, but that really drives the truth home.
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Yea my Sniper is the Camo model, there are no mold ridges anywhere to be found. The camo pattern is perfect and overall the rifle is finished out darn near perfect. The bluing is deep, consistant and zero tooling marks in the metal.
This is my first Quattro trigger and I was completely surprised by the overall feel of the trigger. It's very smooth, with an effortless 1st stage that backs up to a 2nd stage with zero creep or noticeable overtravel. Pull weight might be a little heavy but certainly nothing like what I read here. It is so good I do not plan on doing anything with it.
I did take the rifle apart after reading the post here and am very happy to report that my particular rifle does not have the problems I saw described here in some post. There was several small pieces of metal shaving from the machining stuck in the red lube but my seal looks fine. The piston also had some metal shavings inside it but I have seen worse in much higher priced springer's that I bought. So far I am extremely pleased with this Hatsan.
It is a beast , heavy, stout cocking, accurate, and powerful. Exactly what I was expecting a 28+ft/lb spinger to be.
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Mine works fairly smooth also. All I hear is a little spring twang,then the hit off the target,when you pull the trigger.
Almost too quiet for me,I would rather hear a little pop out the barrel,as I normally shoot things,like pictured to the far left!
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This wasn't meant to be a knock on the TH. My TH outperformed my Sniper for about $100 less. My perception is that the Sniper is the Cadillac and the TH is the Corvette. They are both good guns.
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Yes the sniper is one quiet rifle.i could not believe how quiet mines is.
Mine works fairly smooth also. All I hear is a little spring twang,then the hit off the target,when you pull the trigger.
Almost too quiet for me,I would rather hear a little pop out the barrel,as I normally shoot things,like pictured to the far left!
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This wasn't meant to be a knock on the TH. My TH outperformed my Sniper for about $100 less. My perception is that the Sniper is the Cadillac and the TH is the Corvette. They are both good guns.
I thought both models had the same internals?? Maybe your TH was assembled by the new guy,on the line,wanting to prove himself with good QC and carefull assembly! ;D
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Exactly what I was thinking. It would not be unusual for a factory to have its better employees finishing and assembling its flagship models. I see this all the time in manufacturing.
I believe they are the same internally. But clearly not finished the same. These guns could not feel more different. The design is a good one. The finish and final assembly is suspect.
Certainly the polymer is different, but that is by design - to meet a $200 and $300 price point buyer.
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My SNIPER out shot my TH. The sniper was the Cadillac for sure. The WHF was the same way vs the talon. I am well pleased with both and love the .25 for my needs. It is great that these guns, at least in the .25 will shoot at the advertised FPS and in some cases exceed them.
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... that tells me that is comes down to assembly & lube then. Thanks Whitefang.
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Does the stock material seem like completely different types, or does it seem the sniper has an added finish or layer of something added to it?
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For some reason the TH stock seems to be the standard Synthetic stock. THE SNIPER stock is the same as the WFH. To me the Sniper stock is the same finish as the WFH. I believe you are right about the special finish. Reason being,I had to do some grinding on the WFH stock to put it on the TH gun due to a difference in the trigger assembly and when I ground it out the under layer was black. I didn't like the feel of the WFH stock on the TH. TH STOCK IS MORE STABLE AND FITS THE HAND BETTER.
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Yea my Sniper is the Camo model, there are no mold ridges anywhere to be found. The camo pattern is perfect and overall the rifle is finished out darn near perfect. The bluing is deep, consistant and zero tooling marks in the metal.
This is my first Quattro trigger and I was completely surprised by the overall feel of the trigger. It's very smooth, with an effortless 1st stage that backs up to a 2nd stage with zero creep or noticeable overtravel. Pull weight might be a little heavy but certainly nothing like what I read here. It is so good I do not plan on doing anything with it.
I did take the rifle apart after reading the post here and am very happy to report that my particular rifle does not have the problems I saw described here in some post. There was several small pieces of metal shaving from the machining stuck in the red lube but my seal looks fine. The piston also had some metal shavings inside it but I have seen worse in much higher priced springer's that I bought. So far I am extremely pleased with this Hatsan.
It is a beast , heavy, stout cocking, accurate, and powerful. Exactly what I was expecting a 28+ft/lb spinger to be.
That's great to news. my camo sniper .22 was the same way , pretty darn good inside, I did file the opening of the piston entrance giving it a nice smooth bevel, when I did the clean up and tune process, did you remove the synthetic friction washer out and polish up a metal one in its place inside the piston, or polish up the spring ends?
I tried using a top hat, but then took it apart again to remove it, the rifle seem better with out it, so I just used a polished washer for the inside of the piston, must be because the fat spring is maxed out with its own strength and does not need any more lol
I am so glad I have two snipers in.22 and .25 I think there so cool.
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Does the stock material seem like completely different types, or does it seem the sniper has an added finish or layer of something added to it?
Paul, the black seems like a different material all together. I dont believe any kind of coating has been added to it.
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Oh well. The finish on that Sniper stock is giving me ideas for the TH at any rate. Going to have to look into some of the coatings out there and see what might work.
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Oh well. The finish on that Sniper stock is giving me ideas for the TH at any rate. Going to have to look into some of the coatings out there and see what might work.
Hi Paul,
you mean your going to re do your stock finished coating on the 125th, the bed liner is super durable and looks good far as all the ones i ever seen, I am going to do the 125 sniper,.25 i just received today, in that, possibly if the cool black doesn't grow on me more.
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Yeah, the shinyness and casting lines of the TH put me off a bit. Since it's plastic, I'm thinking some kind of coat that's going to stick well but "soften" the look of the plastic a bit. Maybe pattern some contrasting color and checkering in. Undercoat was my first thought, but the stuff I've tried dried to something like tar.
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Hey Mike4888blues, I did put in a polished washer for the spring to turn on to reduce torque. I also polished the spring ends using my 2X78 grinder and a course, medium and fine scotchbright. Then I polished it to high shine using black, then green buffing compound on my buffer. I made my washer using a piece of 3/32 O1 tool steel that I heat treated and tempered back to around 58rc. I then hand sanded it up thru 2000 grit and polished it out on the buffer. I got it perfectly flat by taping my sandpaper to a granite block that has been machine ground. Then hand rubbing the washer up thru the grits until it was complete. Over kill since I didn't do anything to the inside of the piston but it makes me fell better knowing it's flat. Finished up by using Macarri lubes when I put it all back together.
By the way I used your post for my tear down guide, I certainly appreciate you posting it as this airgun is unlike any I other tore down before in so many ways.
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Yeah, the shinyness and casting lines of the TH put me off a bit. Since it's plastic, I'm thinking some kind of coat that's going to stick well but "soften" the look of the plastic a bit. Maybe pattern some contrasting color and checkering in. Undercoat was my first thought, but the stuff I've tried dried to something like tar.
white fang use that bed liner on all his camo type rifle finished I have not seen it in person, but I imagine it creates a tough Rambo look , guessing white fang says it dries hard and sticks to almost anything. well good luck on what ever you choose.
Mike
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Texture is mildly rough.Very gripable. On the 1st picture you can See the pebble look. I still say they or the same material its just the coating. It's not a gel coat but something like that used in the mold prior to injection. I was around CHOATES in the 80's 90's where they made stocks for the military and whom ever else. He could camo but the best I remember he had allot of OD and BLACK.
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Texture is mildly rough.Very gripable. On the 1st picture you can See the pebble look. I still say they or the same material its just the coating. It's not a gel coat but something like that used in the mold prior to injection. I was around CHOATES in the 80's 90's where they made stocks for the military and whom ever else. He could camo but the best I remember he had allot of OD and BLACK.
What brand is it?
How does it stand up to impacts? Does it scratch easily?
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125th HAtson. Once dry hard as nails. Any painted surface is possible to scratches but this stuff is tuff. No worry on this. Got at least 4 air rifles done this way.
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Texture is mildly rough.Very gripable. On the 1st picture you can See the pebble look. I still say they or the same material its just the coating. It's not a gel coat but something like that used in the mold prior to injection. I was around CHOATES in the 80's 90's where they made stocks for the military and whom ever else. He could camo but the best I remember he had allot of OD and BLACK.
Whats your favorite finish, you did, that you like, can you post a picture on it
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Sure but it will be later today. I am getting my clutter mess from the last few months and yard done. Just got done going through my fathers possessions in my garage that I was able to gather after the passing at the first of April. I have to get the garage where I can get my Harley truck clean and back in the garage.
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I meant what brand of undercoat lol.
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I meant what brand of undercoat lol.
I dont know what brand he uses but I am pretty sure white fang or OC said he bought the undercoating form autozone auto supply's
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ALL RESTOLEUM
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Sure but it will be later today. I am getting my clutter mess from the last few months and yard done. Just got done going through my fathers possessions in my garage that I was able to gather after the passing at the first of April. I have to get the garage where I can get my Harley truck clean and back in the garage.
That is hard to deal with O C, just remember your dad,and like my brother who passed would want us to live a good life,one day at a time, let us not take it for granted anymore
Mike
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Man you guys really hijacked my cool chrony thread :P
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Man you guys really hijacked my cool chrony thread :P
I just comet on what some one mentioned in response in your post, mine usually get hi jacked but I dont look at it that way I just let it do what ever it winds up doing. you did a excellent job by the way. I was responding to members in my post as well everytime some one responded but bob said I was doing what ever, oh well , I see how the site is now,
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I admit to FOUL!!! Had No intention of Hijacking your thread. HAVE AT IT!!! It's all yours. Happens to the best of threads with no intent. I will not be do it again. I guess that's what PM is for. OUT OF HERE.
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You guys crack me up. It's all good. No whistle blowing here. I had a chance to poke some fun so I did. :-*
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Man you guys really hijacked my cool chrony thread
Hey man...keep posting up some of your latest Sniper 25 performance reports! ;D
Rain most of the day here,so no fun with the beast.
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Got to handle and put a couple shots through a Sniper at the GTA shoot. Certainly better quality and attention to detail. Much more civilized compared to my plain 125TH, but you can tell they are siblings. The Sniper definitely looks and feels like a big gun. MUCH better finish on the metal and good bluing. It shows Hatsan knows how to put out a decent springer, now if they'll give the same attention to all of their springers.
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I have this temptation to remove the front sight/muzzle brake and machine up a solid aluminum replacement.
Just want to add a bit of exhaust sound to the spring twang. Anyone thought of this?
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I have this temptation to remove the front sight/muzzle brake and machine up a solid aluminum replacement.
Just want to add a bit of exhaust sound to the spring twang. Anyone thought of this?
If you remove the "S-word" from your 125 Sniper, be sure to destroy it as you do . . . Otherwise, it could be considered an "unregistered S-word", capable of being transferred to another gun . . . a "no-no" with the BATFE !
Dave
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I have this temptation to remove the front sight/muzzle brake and machine up a solid aluminum replacement.
Just want to add a bit of exhaust sound to the spring twang. Anyone thought of this?
well if you do, let us know how it sounds and if you like it.
Personally I love the looks of that big muzzle brake moderator
Do you have to shoot at a range, or special place , or does your place have lot of ground that it doesn't matter.
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I did some accuracy testing this morning, and dialed in the trigger. This trigger is better than my TH, and the groups are just as good. I'll have a report up soon.
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I did some accuracy testing this morning, and dialed in the trigger. This trigger is better than my TH, and the groups are just as good. I'll have a report up soon.
Hi Micro.
the trigger in your sniper is better then your th. what is the other trigger doing to make it not as good.?
I found my trigger block on my sniper to tight causing the sear and it's engaged piece to fit inside to tight, I adjusted the welded trigger block until the pieces fit properly with out jamming, other then that it should preform the same as long as you adjust them the same
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Oh well. The finish on that Sniper stock is giving me ideas for the TH at any rate. Going to have to look into some of the coatings out there and see what might work.
Hi Paul,
you mean your going to re do your stock finished coating on the 125th, the bed liner is super durable and looks good far as all the ones i ever seen, I am going to do the 125 sniper,.25 i just received today, in that, possibly if the cool black doesn't grow on me more.
Do the coatings Mike and make sure You post pics.
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Hey Mike4888blues, I did put in a polished washer for the spring to turn on to reduce torque. I also polished the spring ends using my 2X78 grinder and a course, medium and fine scotchbright. Then I polished it to high shine using black, then green buffing compound on my buffer. I made my washer using a piece of 3/32 O1 tool steel that I heat treated and tempered back to around 58rc. I then hand sanded it up thru 2000 grit and polished it out on the buffer. I got it perfectly flat by taping my sandpaper to a granite block that has been machine ground. Then hand rubbing the washer up thru the grits until it was complete. Over kill since I didn't do anything to the inside of the piston but it makes me fell better knowing it's flat. Finished up by using Macarri lubes when I put it all back together.
By the way I used your post for my tear down guide, I certainly appreciate you posting it as this airgun is unlike any I other tore down before in so many ways.
Hey!!! Thank the Founders of the GTA for the procedures, and their years of experience and thoughtfullness; to make most all of these tuning procedures available to us, without self merit or promotion. Thanks Charlie and Gene. Mike
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Hey Mike4888blues, I did put in a polished washer for the spring to turn on to reduce torque. I also polished the spring ends using my 2X78 grinder and a course, medium and fine scotchbright. Then I polished it to high shine using black, then green buffing compound on my buffer. I made my washer using a piece of 3/32 O1 tool steel that I heat treated and tempered back to around 58rc. I then hand sanded it up thru 2000 grit and polished it out on the buffer. I got it perfectly flat by taping my sandpaper to a granite block that has been machine ground. Then hand rubbing the washer up thru the grits until it was complete. Over kill since I didn't do anything to the inside of the piston but it makes me fell better knowing it's flat. Finished up by using Macarri lubes when I put it all back together.
By the way I used your post for my tear down guide, I certainly appreciate you posting it as this airgun is unlike any I other tore down before in so many ways.
Hey!!! Thank the Founders of the GTA for the procedures, and their years of experience and thoughtfullness; to make most all of these tuning procedures available to us, without self merit or promotion. Thanks Charlie and Gene. Mike
I got the same information on polishing springs and washers from Russ sawyer another well know established tuner sorry if the information can only be explained over and over and over and over again by a established tuners sorry if members cant share what they learned from thee established tuners whats your point!
And as i mentioned always I credit gene and bob for there wonderful site and years of devoted knowledge
btw At the time, I dont remember seeing any other sniper tear down post with pics and I did the model 95 as well because I have passion to share
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Oh well. The finish on that Sniper stock is giving me ideas for the TH at any rate. Going to have to look into some of the coatings out there and see what might work.
Hi Paul,
you mean your going to re do your stock finished coating on the 125th, the bed liner is super durable and looks good far as all the ones i ever seen, I am going to do the 125 sniper,.25 i just received today, in that, possibly if the cool black doesn't grow on me more.
Do the coatings Mike and make sure You post pics.
I certainly will post pics when it is done, but that is a project for down the road, then after I acquire the different materials, and practice, and adjust for better results I will determine if I will follow thru with the project. I am not sure if i want camo I may go with bold tiger stripes.
Best regards Mike