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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Mike 4888blues on April 21, 2012, 05:13:00 PM

Title: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 21, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
 This is part #1/   Follow post down  further till you see part #2
 I have to run out, but here's some  pics on making the piece  for the gas ram  that goes inside  the piston,  and the delrin end piece for the back of the gas  spring. The  results will be posted when I am done testing, by this evening.

I will say cocking was stiff until about the 10th shot, it started getting  smoother and easier as continued shooting, in the beginning there were a couple of times the barrel did not want to engage
 Sorry I can not report on the fps  until i make a adjustment on the new j m seal  when I get back it was pretty darn tight going into the compression area

also the metal gas ram adapter was shaped  so it was fairly even on all sides, with the divot in the center, this will keep the ram from moving period, I also beveled the rams arm  more so that it seats into the same contour of  the divot.

That is how crosman makes there gas ram pistons, except there piece  is spot welded into place.
 it was around 3/8'' thick cut from 7/8'' steel square stock, then ground and shaped so it would  fit into the piston.  this way the piston is totally free to twist and no Chance of it getting bound or moving off center, there's no play in the receiver any way, when you done and the gas ram has no pre load on it  except a1/32''  but that  is not to be counted.

 the 90% allowable gas ram stroke is reached when the piston has reached its travel point when the triggers sear  engages because that distance was 4 1/2''/ so the gas ram speck for the rifle is on the money!
"Boy it was a close call at first looking into that! lol
Mike
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1
Post by: Devin on April 21, 2012, 05:14:45 PM
Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1
Post by: Bob P on April 21, 2012, 06:44:19 PM
Looks good! Sounds like your getting the gas springs full potentual.

Staying Tuned..

Bob
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1
Post by: z28rod on April 21, 2012, 06:46:09 PM
Good job Mike, excellent post. just click on the bottom liknk for bigger pics.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1
Post by: Tarheel on April 21, 2012, 07:51:57 PM
I am anxiously watching ang waiting for some speed numbers, so we can determine FPE  . . .

I feel like an "Expectant Father" in the Waiting Room . . . LOL !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1
Post by: bluzjamer on April 21, 2012, 08:03:31 PM
Looks great Mike.....can't wait for results.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 04:10:08 AM
Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?

 you can click the link under the picture to make them a little bigger, maybe try click and save them to your computer so you can zoom in on your computer/ this is only way I know how to upload using this size
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 05:28:56 AM
Part #2 of this post.  I was getting 900 fps using .22 14.3 grn cphp lead pellets this is the Moller 90-125-A-Red gas ram

 the cocking gets easier after the initial install quickly, yet it is strong,  but not over bearing, it lets you know you would not want to use the yellow ram in IMO.

 This has been a lot of work.. a lot!!
 I degreased the wfh, did the cross hatching, lube tuned, installed the new J m seal,made the parts for the rams conversion , along with checking the pistons travel,

which is how far it travels down  from when it is not cocked to when it engages with the triggers sear, locking into place,  that was 4 1/2'' the rams stroke is 4.92
 now take into account you are not supposed  to exceed 90% of the rams stroke and you can see with those measurements it is darn close
 

 The j m seal was so tight, by the time it reached the compression chamber, I had  to use a wooden dowel to shove it down all the way, at that point I was getting 850 fps.
 Not having time for a new seal to wear in as we want to know what the results truly are
 hey  guess what?? i ruined it  yep,  21.00 down the drain  (bye now ...lol

 I dont mind being truthful, we need to know we are human, staying up till 4 am last night and up early today,  coming back home late today,  trying to get this done so we can all see  what the moller ram will give us,  well that's what happens i ruined a new jm seal

 I reinstalled the wfh original seal ,it was fine to begin with/ but it pays to install a j m seal that way you are done with  seals for a long long time .

 Every time the rifle gets taken apart the trigger has to come out whole,  so that means installing the small main trigger pin I made, that holds  the trigger together yet allowing you to remove the trigger. thank  bob cdt for that ideal i learned from his  post!.

 then when it is put back together.
 you have to shoot it like 8 x then re clean the barrel to remove any excess lube or possibly molly out of the barrel, so you get accurate crony readings

 Then  you shoot 10 x  just to be sure the piston is warmed up.  then you start the crony.

 the ps2  stupid crony i have reads maybe 1 shot out of 6 because the  center line of the   two lazor read outs, are very  narrow, needless to say i will be buying a  normal crony from wall mart.

 I realize  if i am going to be doing  some rifles for other members  I better get some parts  on hand, like safety springs, c clips, trigger retaining pins of different sizes, jm seals

its a lot  of work to be honest/ there is no room for anything to be incorrect, everything has to be  right, you would be amazed to see the process  from beginning to end, one little thing and you are taking it all apart again, including re cleaning the barrel and so on.

Any one doing this look at the pictures.
 I would make the adapter that fits into your ram like this,  it takes longer but its done right.
 this keeps the ram off of  the bottom of the piston it keeps the ram centered yet it keeps  the ram totally free from binding, and it allows it  to pivot freely with out  binding or adding   any stress , the ram needs to move freely, to be able to twist , pivot freely, so your bottom piece should not fit the rams body tight either it does not have to,a little bigger will allow the ram to position itself the way it naturally would want  when its stroke is being engaged.  I made the piece from 7/8'' steel square stock, 3/8'' wide was the actual peice.

 the rams end piece was made from white delrin, great stuff very hard, very slippery, thank magnum116 for letting me know what  to buy, he has taught me several thing since I joined gta and he  is a good gta friend

 I beveled  the rams arm  to match the pivot  divot it sits in
also  i filed  all the edges around the pistons I. D, really  good and lubed that area as well, making no chance for  the rams housing to get scratched or cause wear into the body.
 molly anything  that will have  contact that will twist or move.

 I like to know if the wfh  has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something  I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out  the quattro trigger

 


Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: z28rod on April 22, 2012, 11:32:36 AM
Mike,  we need more pics Mike of the process with details of each pic. like a video documentation, i know its allot to do but this is almost historic whats going on with this post , wouldnt you say, we have tarheel our engineers we have multiple members with input , I just think to document this is very important. Brent
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: sawtoothscream on April 22, 2012, 01:50:28 PM
keep up the good work.  cant wait to here how ti turns out in the end and the numbers
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 03:16:08 PM
Remember, the MOELLER "RED" gas ram was determined to be a "safe starting point".

Other gas rams should give progressively higher numbers.

The KALLER "YELLOW" would be the next step up, with the MOELLER "YELLOW" likely being the "MAX", in terms of Cocking Effort and, possibly other areas.

The fact is, we will not know until we get there . . . Safety is "Job #1" and Reliability is "Job #2" !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on April 22, 2012, 03:30:37 PM
So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 03:39:42 PM
So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons

Based on the numbers right now, that seems to be accurate for the time being. However, Mike is still dealing with Piston Seal issues and other factors that will likely come into play, in terms of the "combination" ( Piston Weight, Pre-Load, etc ).

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: WHITEFANG on April 22, 2012, 03:46:30 PM
Sorry for the seal deal!!! I forgot that the JM deal is slightly O/S. JM claimed and others that's the factory seal is slightly undersized. Been over a year that I was told that when I bought the WFH and got some parts from JM. I tried to make it fit something else and lost that thing to.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 03:49:59 PM
Sorry for the seal deal!!! I forgot that the JM deal is slightly O/S. JM claimed and others that's the factory seal is slightly undersized. Been over a year that I was told that when I bought the WFH and got some parts from JM. I tried to make it fit something else and lost that thing to.

So,  is it better to trim the Seal or hone the Piston Bore larger ?

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Paul68 on April 22, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
Others have trimmed the JM seal and lost power. That's why JM states clearly it is oversize for a reason on his site. Given JM's experience, I'd leave his seals alone and let em break in properly.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 05:16:22 PM
Others have trimmed the JM seal and lost power. That's why JM states clearly it is oversize for a reason on his site. Given JM's experience, I'd leave his seals alone and let em break in properly.

That sounds like a good idea to me . . .

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: WHITEFANG on April 22, 2012, 05:17:57 PM
My point. Thanks Paul. Proper lube and breaking in. Still like the ideal of at the least a scuffing of the piston chamber for the 2 surfaces to mate. thats just old school. I have had very good results of the factory seals in the my price guns. Not discrediting the after market. After market seal are by far better. Some sizing is needed. 
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 05:57:55 PM
Sorry for the seal deal!!! I forgot that the JM deal is slightly O/S. JM claimed and others that's the factory seal is slightly undersized. Been over a year that I was told that when I bought the WFH and got some parts from JM. I tried to make it fit something else and lost that thing to.

So,  is it better to trim the Seal or hone the Piston Bore larger ?

Dave

The J m seal for the hatsan and  wfh  and talons ,Some people would leave it the same size  knowing it will break in and loosen up down the road getting higher fps then  when it was originally installed.
 You know j m knows his stuff.  I rather adjust the seal if i had to, just by simply sanding it down some, how ever Dave I was just to tired when I did mine and took it too far.lol

   no  the receiver should be left alone, only a cross hatching  from the begging is what should be done.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 06:12:55 PM
So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons

  well i bet the moller ram will last a lot longer and perform a lot better then the crosmans nitro piston will
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 06:17:57 PM
So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons

Based on the numbers right now, that seems to be accurate for the time being. However, Mike is still dealing with Piston Seal issues and other factors that will likely come into play, in terms of the "combination" ( Piston Weight, Pre-Load, etc ).

Dave

 with the new installed j m seal the fps was 850 fps in .22  14.3 grn lead pellet,  I did not have time to wait for Break in"" period as we are testing to see our results here.

 after sanding it down and ruined it being I was tired and up very late
the seal i reinstalled is the original wfh seal it works fine  so I would except the 900 fps we our getting with  that.
 from that point it will be + or -   with in the 900 fps depending on how tight a person seal is, and exactly how they did there conversion
 
I am happy with our results,  900 fps in a .22  14.3  is not bad for a gas ram in a safe level.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on April 22, 2012, 06:27:27 PM
I'm sure they will, but the Crosman Nitros I have in my 3 guns, have being darn good for a long time now :)
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 06:31:26 PM
Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 06:38:26 PM
Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 06:43:02 PM
The "numbers" , as I see them, tell me that the combination is not "optimized" ( Piston Weight, Friction, etc )

At present, if Scotchmo's equation is the "standard", the numbers reflect an "EC" ( efficiency coefficient of .33 -  aka 33% ) . . .

From what Scotchmo said, an EC of .35 to .38 should be possible.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 06:43:23 PM
I'm sure they will, but the Crosman Nitros I have in my 3 guns, have being darn good for a long time now :)

  are you using the large one  because the smaller ones seem to be wimp in power for a ,22  lead 13.4 grn pellet getting around 700 fps it would be nice to see  around 800 fps then i would not complain.

 how ever the gta members using 177 pellets must be very happy
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 06:46:32 PM
  are you using the large one  because the smaller ones seem to be wimp in power for a ,22  lead 14.3 grn pellet getting around 700 fps it would be nice to see  around 800 fps then i would not complain.

My Nitro Venom .22 is right around 700 fps with 14.3 gr CPHP's.

700 fps X 700 FPS X 14,3 gr / 450240 = 15.56 FPE

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 06:51:15 PM
The "numbers" , as I see them, tell me that the combination is not "optimized" ( Piston Weight, etc )

Dave
Hi dave
  your thinking theres more power to be had from the moller red?

 criss magnum 116 asked about piston weight  being the same when the original top hat was used with the spring, but i could not make a piece to compensate  the weight of the top hat.

 i had just enough room to make the rams piece it pivots in inside the pistons bottom and the end piece the rams body sits it.

 the piece i made inside the bottom of the piston was about 3/8'' deep, with a divot drilled out in the middle the end piece for the rams body to seat in was was maybe 1/2'' wide of delrin  that
is all the room I had to deal with

 I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps
 but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 06:58:21 PM
Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

 you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 07:04:59 PM
Hi dave
  your thinking theres more power to be had from the moller red?

 criss magnum 116 asked about piston weight  being the same when the original top hat was used with the spring, but i could not make a piece to compensate  the weight of the top hat.

Possibly . . . At present, we have an "EC" ( efficiency coefficient ) of .33 ( 33% ) . . . Scotchmo indicated that an "EC", ranging from .35 to .38 should be possible.

Several factors come into play:

(1) Piston Weight

(2) Friction

(3) Alignment

(4) Other ( Need expert input here )

If the "EC" could be increased, this is what the "numbers" SHOULD look like, based on Scotchmo's equation :

.33 = 25.59 FPE
.34 = 26.37 FPE
.35 = 27.14 FPE
.36 = 27.92 FPE
.37 = 28.69 FPE
.38 = 29.47 FPE

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 07:06:17 PM
Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

 you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello

Mike,

Yes, you can . . . Those are the "BLACK" gas rams . . .

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 07:08:00 PM
I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

Mike,

Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?

Initial ?

Maximum ?

Thanks !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 07:13:35 PM
I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

Mike,

Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?

Initial ?

Maximum ?

Thanks !

Dave

 I have a digital scale I will get a book to lay on it and zero it out  and try, I will have  to be very careful its in the wfh and you know  we cant put any pressure of=n the butt of the stock at trigger area. i will get back to you in a minit with that
Mike
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 07:41:19 PM
I know a little more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red

Mike,

Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?

Initial ?

Maximum ?

Thanks !

Dave

 I have a digital scale I will get a book to lay on it and zero it out  and try, I will have  to be very careful its in the wfh and you know  we cant put any pressure of=n the butt of the stock at trigger area. i will get back to you in a minit with that
Mike

ok  Dave what I am getting is  around  52 initially, 
 the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change  usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position  i tried  it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
 
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 07:56:33 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:08:45 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Lambchops on April 22, 2012, 08:10:37 PM
Back in the summer he had a long 12 page thread and he said power was near 42 FPE in .22
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:15:15 PM
Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?

OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first

MOELLER "RED" . . .  900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE

The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE

Dave

Dave

 you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello

Mike,

Yes, you can . . . Those are the "BLACK" gas rams . . .

Dave

I thought I posted  for this I dont se it

 Monday  I will call  moller punch to see if i can send back the ram  to have them fill it 30% more
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Paul68 on April 22, 2012, 08:16:04 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?

Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.

Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:23:51 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?

Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.

Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?

 hi paul  please scroll back up on this page I address the piston weight  and  what I did
thanks
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 08:31:09 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

Supertech77's rifle uses a gas ram more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram . . .

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 08:35:13 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

Mike,

Mick / Supertech77's gas ram is more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" . . .  It is a .22 caliber WALTHER TALON MAGNUM ( Same as a HATSAN 125 ) .

I am somewhat doubtful of the "42FPE" number, but I sure would believe 38 FPE +/-  !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:38:02 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

Mike,

Mick / Supertech77's piston is more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" . . .  It is a .22 caliber WALTHER TALON MAGNUM ( Same as a HATSAN 125 ) .

I am somewhat doubtful of the "42FPE" number, but I sure would believe 38 FPE +/-  !

Dave

I am  looking into getting another crony to dave.
hey you know that 4-1/2'' of cocking piston travel  was  off of my tape measure  it could of been a tad more if you get to the exact measurement ?? just going by my eye sight using a tape
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 08:38:19 PM
Back in the summer he had a long 12 page thread and he said power was near 42 FPE in .22

THIS thread is WELL-WORTH reading . . .

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,19419.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,19419.0.html)


Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 08:41:41 PM
I am  looking into getting another crony to dave.
hey you know that 4-1/2'' of cocking piston travel  was  off of my tape measure  it could of been a tad more if you get to the exact measurement ?? just going by my eye sight using a tape


Mike,

According to every stroke length specification I've seen for the Hatsan 125, it is 120 mm . . .

120 mm = 4.724" or about 1/40" less than 4 3/4" . . .


Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 08:49:43 PM
ok  Dave what I am getting is  around  52 initially, 
 the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change  usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position  i tried  it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
 

Hmm . . . Not "exact science" but interesting !

Apparently the Hatsan gives an Initial "Mechanical Advantage" of 3:1 and a Final "Mechanical Advantage" of 5:1

Given those numbers, a guesstimate of the Cocking Effort on a MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram would be:

Initial Cocking Effort :  67 lb

Final Cocking Effort  :  61 lb


Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 08:55:09 PM
ok  Dave what I am getting is  around  52 initially, 
 the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change  usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position  i tried  it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
 

Hmm . . . Not "exact science" but interesting !

Apparently the Hatsan gives an Initial "Mechanical Advantage" of 3:1 and a Final "Mechanical Advantage" of 5:1

Given those numbers, a guesstimate of the Cocking Effort on a MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram would be:

Initial Cocking Effort :  67 lb

Final Cocking Effort  :  61 lb


Dave


 well with that info Dave I hope moller puch will say sure send  the m 90 125 red  pistons back and for a smal fee  we can add more  Iam thinking dave 30 % more  what do you think, i thought maybe 35 % but iam not sure
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Paul68 on April 22, 2012, 09:04:47 PM
I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..

 But what did super teck use  with what cal?
  i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger  fps

ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?

Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.

Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?

 hi paul  please scroll back up on this page I address the piston weight  and  what I did
thanks

I was hoping since you guys were trying to get accurate results and know exactly what was going on, you'd have weighed the parts.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 09:14:42 PM
well with that info Dave I hope moller puch will say sure send  the m 90 125 red  pistons back and for a smal fee  we can add more  Iam thinking dave 30 % more  what do you think, i thought maybe 35 % but iam not sure

I just "crunched some numbers" . . .

The 140 bar "RED" gas ram has 2030 psi, while the 180 bar "YELLOW" has 2610 psi . . .

2610 / 2030 = 1.2857142   ( i.e. - A 28.57% increase )

Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar ( 2610 psi )

Dave


Click to ENLARGE . . .

(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n561/Ez2cDave/MOELLERM90DATA.jpg)
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 09:19:41 PM
I was hoping since you guys were trying to get accurate results and know exactly what was going on, you'd have weighed the parts.

Paul,

Those are the kinds of details that sometimes get overlooked. Problems of that type could have been avoided if we had experienced tuners advising us on "proper procedures" but, unfortunately, that was not the case in this situation.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Paul68 on April 22, 2012, 10:23:52 PM
Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.

You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis,  accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.

There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.

Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.

THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.

As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.

The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.

The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.

I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.

I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.

Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.

Hope you guys get it ironed out.





 
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 10:46:17 PM
You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis,  accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.

There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.

Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.

THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.

As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.

The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.

The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.

I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.

I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.

Paul,

That was very constructive and I am sure that Mike will get something out of your post, because I certainly did.

I am assuming that Mike would have to go back and put the rifle in it's original configuration and start from there, correct?

Next, at each step, a round of testing should be conducted to get comparative data. This would continue throughout the process.

I, for one, would like to have known the Initial &Final Cocking Force for the Spring, in order to be able to compare it to the gas ram.

Obviously, there is more work to be done and we need to follow a structured process as we go.

Thanks, Paul !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Scotchmo on April 22, 2012, 10:51:22 PM

 I like to know if the wfh  has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something  I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out  the quattro trigger

How much preload do you have on the gas spring? If it is too much, the sear may not be getting full lockup each time. And how deep is the "divot"?

33% efficiency and 5 FPE/CI are the normal numbers that you can get. And you got them. More is possible but your numbers are right in line with what I would expect from dropping a gas spring in an otherwise stock airgun.

When you want to push beyond those number, the next thing that you need to look at is the piston seal. I recommend an o-ring piston seal if you want to push it.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 10:53:56 PM
Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.

You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis,  accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.

There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.

Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.

THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.

As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.

The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.

The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.

I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.

I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.

Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.

Hope you guys get it ironed out.





 
The original piston that was in the wfh with the spring and big top hat was reading 958 fps. now Since I ruined the new J M seal and reinstalled the original seal   which was fine as mentioned in a early post,  The original seal was fine getting great fps in the spring and top hat set up.

 So now we know the moller  ram reached 900 fps seal question is  not a factor at this point!

 How ever being there  no more top hat, and no way to add a equal weighted adapter  that goes into the bottom  of the piston to keep the rams arm centered and pivot freely /

 then we have to conclude  are result  are what they are. things  are differnt because the spring  is also out of the equasion  not just the top hat!

 after the ram  is  placed in the receiver  with out any adapters  you have less then 1'' to make  adapters  for both ends of the ram

that'  and the results  are as follows  900fps periods what we are dealing with.

 you know the back and fourth stuff is getting to me its a real pita.

 the used seal  was good enough to get 958fps with the spring and top hat then it is good enough to use in the test on the conversion.

now at this point  it comes down to the ram itself, yellow will be to much  so.. I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 10:59:16 PM
I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added

Mike,

A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 11:10:06 PM

 I like to know if the wfh  has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something  I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out  the quattro trigger

How much preload do you have on the gas spring? If it is too much, the sear may not be getting full lockup each time. And how deep is the "divot"?

33% efficiency and 5 FPE/CI are the normal numbers that you can get. And you got them. More is possible but your numbers are right in line with what I would expect from dropping a gas spring in an otherwise stock airgun.

When you want to push beyond those number, the next thing that you need to look at is the piston seal. I recommend an o-ring piston seal if you want to push it.

 pre load as stated in the part #2 post says  1/16''  if that    very very little enough to say there is no pre load
I did try to add a thin washer  beyond  that which  would of created about 1/8'' of pre load  and I did not like how hard it was to try to compress  the rear  into place  so I took that washer out, I did not wish to damage  the receivers  end trying to gain a 1/8'' of pre load.

Also with the piston traveling 4 1/2 ''  the 90 % of rams  stroke would be very close to being used  up  so pre load was not something I even  wanted  to attempt

Now  I bought the wfh used, I have not been  able  to shoot it other then testing it since I bought it.

so the the sear occasionally not catching when the rifle is cocked, could be the safety needs adjustment  or  it may of had that problem when I bought it.

please  see post up further  again the seal used was good enough to get 958 fps with the wfh large spring and large top hat.
 
I am pretty certain what we have is what  is expected  with a conversion,  so now  its a matter of getting the moller ram  with more power added into it I will call moller tomorrow to see if they will add 30 % more

the divot for  the gas rams arn  is deep enough so it creates a seating place where theres no way for it to loose its center position,  no deeper  the entire piece is only about 3/8''  wide  then its drilled out  for the divot in the middle
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 11:17:30 PM
I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added

Mike,

A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.

Dave

 then what I need to ask them  to do is se if we can get what  a 155 bar?

 I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: sawtoothscream on April 22, 2012, 11:52:27 PM
hows is it on the shot compared to the spring?   If it feels better I might consider it.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 11:59:01 PM
hows is it on the shot copared to the spring?   If it feels better I might consider it.

it feels smoother  /they usually do
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 12:32:59 AM
I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added

Mike,

A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.

Dave

 then what I need to ask them  to do is se if we can get what  a 155 bar?

 I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol

Mike,

The increase from 140 bar to 180 bar is  1.2857 . . . That is an increase of 28.57% . . . Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar and you will have "YELLOW" specs.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 12:44:34 AM
I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added

 I will call them tomorrow
Mike,

A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.

Dave

 then what I need to ask them  to do is se if we can get what  a 155 bar?

 I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol

Mike,

The increase from 140 bar to 180 bar is  1.2857 . . . That is an increase of 28.57% . . . Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar and you will have "YELLOW" specs.

Dave
  either that or just  get a even  exchange i have a red 125  and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both  then
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Paul68 on April 23, 2012, 12:56:40 AM
Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.

You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis,  accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.

There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.

Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.

THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.

As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.

The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.

The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.

I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.

I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.

Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.

Hope you guys get it ironed out.





 
The original piston that was in the wfh with the spring and big top hat was reading 958 fps. now Since I ruined the new J M seal and reinstalled the original seal   which was fine as mentioned in a early post,  The original seal was fine getting great fps in the spring and top hat set up.

 So now we know the moller  ram reached 900 fps seal question is  not a factor at this point!

 How ever being there  no more top hat, and no way to add a equal weighted adapter  that goes into the bottom  of the piston to keep the rams arm centered and pivot freely /

 then we have to conclude  are result  are what they are. things  are differnt because the spring  is also out of the equasion  not just the top hat!

 after the ram  is  placed in the receiver  with out any adapters  you have less then 1'' to make  adapters  for both ends of the ram

that'  and the results  are as follows  900fps periods what we are dealing with.

 you know the back and fourth stuff is getting to me its a real pita.

 the used seal  was good enough to get 958fps with the spring and top hat then it is good enough to use in the test on the conversion.

now at this point  it comes down to the ram itself, yellow will be to much  so.. I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added

Well, I tried. Good luck.

I'll let you guys see how I do it when I get my 125 replaced.

Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 12:59:55 AM
  either that or just  get a even  exchange i have a red 125  and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both  then
[/quote]

Mike,

Yep . . . The perfect solution.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 01:01:41 AM
  either that or just  get a even  exchange i have a red 125  and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both  then

Mike,

Yep . . . The perfect solution.

Dave
[/quote]  gees  what did  you say the cocking will be with the yellow ?? 60 lbs lol
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: sawtoothscream on April 23, 2012, 03:16:39 AM
whats the cocking force on a stock 125? 
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 03:33:00 AM
whats the cocking force on a stock 125? 

 i will let you know  tomorrow
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 03:36:15 AM
 I will call moller tomorrow.

 I don't want a yellow  I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders  or even a  tool to release pressure.

 If  the tool is inexpensive  and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure  drop/  I can then  order a yellow  test it, as well as adjust it

 I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps  is ideal
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 04:21:06 AM
whats the cocking force on a stock 125? 

 ok it is 1:14 am tomorrow is here lol

 The cocking force on the hatsan  125 sniper  is 53lb new from the factory, it has one shot thru it
 but remember  it will change when it has fully broken in.  and to me that feels just fine I like it alot.
 I just noticed  this , and remember another member saying the same thing,  the sites are further down the rifle and now I can see them clearer because of me having trouble seeing up close,  so that 's definitely cool, and yes I still love the 125 sniper in camo /

 and yes I still love the wfh to both cool rifles to have for sure
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 10:24:04 AM
MIKE,

The Cocking Force on a Hatsan 125 with the 180 bar Moeller "YELLOW" Gas Ram should be 67 lb. initially and then 61 lb. at the end of the cocking stroke.

Get Moeller to provide 180 bar ( 2610 psi ) gas rams, either through EXCHANGE or Pressure Modification of the "RED" ones.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Scotchmo on April 23, 2012, 02:31:25 PM
I will call moller tomorrow.

 I don't want a yellow  I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders  or even a  tool to release pressure.

 If  the tool is inexpensive  and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure  drop/  I can then  order a yellow  test it, as well as adjust it

 I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps  is ideal

The tool to fully degas a gas spring is simple. Also, I think someone could make a simple adapter that would allow them to charge a gas spring with air from a hand PCP pump. That would be good for experimenting and getting just the "right" pressure.

Your reasoning with 14.3gr pellets and 950fps is exactly how I think. There is no reason to have any more power in a .22 caliber airgun. 950fps puts you right at the high end of the sweet spot for distance and accuracy (in my opinion).

The gas springs respond well when using a low friction seal and light piston. A looser fitting, high quality seal will probably get you there even with the red label spring. You are already at 900fps, so it might be better to work on improving the the efficiency a little rather than the adding brute force.

I went from 10fpe (30% efficiency) to 12fpe (36% efficiency) by experimenting until I found the right seal and piston weight. The low friction seal made the most difference. And the weight changes were used to fine tune it for a particular pellet weight.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 23, 2012, 03:23:38 PM
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

The N-Forcer "Yellow" gas rams have an Initial force of 200 lb and a Final force of 260lb .

The potential is there for 31.7 FPE, using an "EC" of .35 . . .  29.88 FPE using an "EC" of .33 .

Dave

Click to ENLARGE . . .


(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n561/Ez2cDave/N-FORCERMF-19DATA.jpg)

Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 03:45:15 PM
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

 Maybe call them talk to a parts teck, see if you can buy the "de charge tool"  and  ask if  it is  easy  to release a little pressure with out having the pressure drop  to sudden ..

I am going  to do that now that way I can buy the moller yellow and adjust them my self,  we come this far  now its  time  to complete are findings lol
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 23, 2012, 03:59:12 PM
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to decrease the pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure....oh....and nitrogen.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Kailua on April 23, 2012, 04:11:24 PM
Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?

Try Ctrl and + or - on the ten key pad at the same time for a smaller or larger image.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 04:14:56 PM
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

Actually, it requires all of that, PLUS Nitrogen !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 04:27:08 PM
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 04:49:24 PM
 Now  I am excited. because this is it Dave.
It all comes  down  to this. using the yellow  as is or carefully depressurizing it lower.
the mechanics  are basic, if some one knows what there doing in the first place,
Like anything else. 

It would be nice to have the same piston for any rifle  but made with different  thickness to see how the weight will effect the out come. but we do not have that option with the wfh and the hatsan 125 sniper.

It  is more  work to balance the springer  but at least  you can get different springs and top hats for the most favorable results.

 I am finally stoked  now  as  the conclusion will wrap this up.

 the whole project is down  to this now
 A  /making the two parts for the rams conversion, ( that's been done  several ways)
 B / ordering  the right ram and possibly the depressurizing tool for the moller rams

 this is where we are at I am stoked.
I am having the other GTA members rams returned back to me , they will be exchanged for the moller yellow.

I have not been able to thank you Dave and the scotchamo guy,  sorry  cant remember his name off hand, but I will be  sending him pictures,  when  I tear down the sniper 125 next
 as well as posting them,  that wont be until after I get the new  rams back .


 
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 05:12:24 PM
Now  I am excited. because this is it Dave.
It all comes  down  to this. using the yellow  as is or carefully depressurizing it lower.
the mechanics  are basic, if some one knows what there doing in the first place,
Like anything else. 

It would be nice to have the same piston for any rifle  but made with different  thickness to see how the weight will effect the out come. but we do not have that option with the wfh and the hatsan 125 sniper.

It  is more  work to balance the springer  but at least  you can get different springs and top hats for the most favorable results.

 I am finally stoked  now  as  the conclusion will wrap this up.

 the whole project is down  to this now
 A  /making the two parts for the rams conversion, ( that's been done  several ways)
 B / ordering  the right ram and possibly the depressurizing tool for the moller rams

 this is where we are at I am stoked.
I am having the other GTA members rams returned back to me , they will be exchanged for the moller yellow.

I have not been able to thank you Dave and the scotchamo guy,  sorry  cant remember his name off hand, but I will be  sending him pictures,  when  I tear down the sniper 125 next
 as well as posting them,  that wont be until after I get the new  rams back .


 

Mike,

We need really good data, in case any further adjustments are necessary ( probably will be ). While you have everything apart, weigh the piston and other components. Make lots of notes and shoot pics as you go.

Be very careful and allow for a "break-in period" for the fit of the Seal. As it wears in, the numbers will likely show changes.

Be careful, Mike . . . This gas ram "means business" !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 05:42:10 PM
I will call moller tomorrow.

 I don't want a yellow  I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders  or even a  tool to release pressure.

 If  the tool is inexpensive  and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure  drop/  I can then  order a yellow  test it, as well as adjust it

 I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps  is ideal

The tool to fully degas a gas spring is simple. Also, I think someone could make a simple adapter that would allow them to charge a gas spring with air from a hand PCP pump. That would be good for experimenting and getting just the "right" pressure.

Your reasoning with 14.3gr pellets and 950fps is exactly how I think. There is no reason to have any more power in a .22 caliber airgun. 950fps puts you right at the high end of the sweet spot for distance and accuracy (in my opinion).

The gas springs respond well when using a low friction seal and light piston. A looser fitting, high quality seal will probably get you there even with the red label spring. You are already at 900fps, so it might be better to work on improving the the efficiency a little rather than the adding brute force.

I went from 10fpe (30% efficiency) to 12fpe (36% efficiency) by experimenting until I found the right seal and piston weight. The low friction seal made the most difference. And the weight changes were used to fine tune it for a particular pellet weight.

 I like how you think, Scotchmo !
 Your practical and thinking mechanically enc-lined,  with sound proper input far as I am concerned as well
              This is not chemistry class.
there's no need  to pull up  the atoms and sub particles and measure  and count the different atoms responses

 It is a air rifle, and yes you will be looking for a proper power not over, not under
 ( the sweet spot)

 Yes a tighter piston seal verses a less tighter piston seal, is a main factor for different results.  How ever just like any tune rifle the piston seal should be just right .

 not overly tight and not easy to push thru, it should feel as if it has decent drag  but with out having to be overly forced


 I totally understand jm making his seal for  the hatsan 125 and wfh  so that they need a break in period  obviously he is just making sure  no one can say his seal is under sized.

How ever there is no reason to have to use it as is  if you are capable  of  making a adjustment , no different then  if you made any other adjustment.

And fyi  here  its ok to make mistakes, we are  all human stuff happens live and learn  hopefully  is what we all want to do with anything in life not just air rifles

J M  says there's no need for adjustment  on theses seals because he wants buyers to be aware there is no problem  with the size, and  that it will wear in and meet its own break in point in time
 Once again it comes down to practicle  common sense   its  that simple

The parts used on both ends of the ram, being that there is very little room left over, are basically parts that serve one purpose,  "because you can not do much with them except use high quality parts and materials,they function as follows.

 1.  to hold bottom of gas spring
 2.to keep rams arm pivot on center, and to keep it free to twist and pivot ever so slightly on its axis

 Now If we were converting a gas ram rifle back to a springer from scratch, then there would be need of a lot of  testing  with different size top hat  as well as  different size springs/ it is harder to do a springer if you were doing it from scratch then a gas ram.



 
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 08:10:26 PM
I totally understand jm making his seal for  the hatsan 125 and wfh  so that they need a break in period  obviously he is just making sure  no one can say his seal is under sized.

Mike,

It also allows for someone who "over-hones" his cylinder too much, too !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 08:13:35 PM
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

Mark,

Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 08:40:08 PM
I totally understand jm making his seal for  the hatsan 125 and wfh  so that they need a break in period  obviously he is just making sure  no one can say his seal is under sized.

Mike,

It also allows for someone who "over-hones" his cylinder too much, too !

Dave
  Absolutely Dave

 Also allows for any receivers  that are not exact  to the original specks of its design, meaning some may be a little over
J M knows all this to well
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 08:46:39 PM
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.

 Does the enforcer instructions mention  to  do it under water  so you can see the amout of bubble when  being discharged for a lower power amount?

That's what I would do Mark,  so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
 it will be a pain i believe cause then  you have to install it,  to see  your results, but  its part of getting  to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.

 It will not take  much being that is a small cylinder, so minute  is the word.

if  i was doing it  i  do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface,  and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol  just food for thought
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 23, 2012, 11:32:40 PM
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.

 Does the enforcer instructions mention  to  do it under water  so you can see the amout of bubble when  being discharged for a lower power amount?

That's what I would do Mark,  so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
 it will be a pain i believe cause then  you have to install it,  to see  your results, but  its part of getting  to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.

 It will not take  much being that is a small cylinder, so minute  is the word.

if  i was doing it  i  do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface,  and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol  just food for thought

The biggest problem is not knowing how much has been released and being unable to do anything about it if it is too much . . .

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 24, 2012, 01:01:26 AM
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.

 ok  so just release   minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.

 moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure  and I am now exchanging for the yellow.

spoke to there in house service teck.

 Does the enforcer instructions mention  to  do it under water  so you can see the amout of bubble when  being discharged for a lower power amount?

That's what I would do Mark,  so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
 it will be a pain i believe cause then  you have to install it,  to see  your results, but  its part of getting  to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.

 It will not take  much being that is a small cylinder, so minute  is the word.

if  i was doing it  i  do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface,  and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol  just food for thought

The biggest problem is not knowing how much has been released and being unable to do anything about it if it is too much . . .

Dave

I believe moller would recharge if we need for a small fee

I would only  let fine  fine bubbles out and only a couple  and that's it    what a pain though to have to install it to test its results  and have to keep taking everything apart till your where you want it...
 I may look into buying the rest  of the set up, so I can fill my own  and read the fill amounts,and even buy a tank, they have places to buy gases
  The tool i bought for de gasing was almost 16.00  ah I will play it by ear

 

Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 24, 2012, 04:02:50 PM
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

Mark,

Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?

Dave

My rifle is SAS with the 2nd iteration of the original trigger. Machined parts rather than laminated. I will take a look at reducing the pressure in the N-Forcer Yellow using the water methond Mike suggested. But I am in no hurry to go after that as the XL piston is doing pretty well.
Mark
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 04:16:56 PM
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!

Mark

Mark,

Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?

Dave

My rifle is SAS with the 2nd iteration of the original trigger. Machined parts rather than laminated. I will take a look at reducing the pressure in the N-Forcer Yellow using the water method Mike suggested. But I am in no hurry to go after that as the XL piston is doing pretty well.
Mark

Mark,

Do you have any Chrony and Cocking Force numbers for your setup, as it is right now with the N-Forcer Yellow ?

Thanks !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 04:31:26 PM
Wheels are turning in my head . . .

Mark got 33 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-

Moeller "Yellow"  with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 34.7 FPE.

With Scotchmo's suggested "EC" of .33, until testing the FPE would be 33 FPE. . .

With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 24, 2012, 04:40:44 PM
Wheels are turning in my head . . .

Mark got 33 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-

Moeller "Yellow"  with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 34.7 FPE.

With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.

Dave


 well the hatsan 125 and wfh  ( same) lol pistons  are heavy duty  thick  and solid and big.

 Cant wait  to  we all see what the results are  for the guys with .25 calibers  they should feel very happy.
 I my self would be very happy with 950. 960 tops in my .22
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 04:43:07 PM
Wheels are turning in my head . . . I added in Scotchmo's "EC" of .33 before testing .

Mark got 32.3 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-

Moeller "Yellow"  with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 33.9 FPE.

With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
Personally, these are MY "goals" . . . I could "live with" 33 - 34 fpe, depending on how things turn out.

1 - 950 FPS w / 18.1 gr pellets  ( 36.3 FPE )

2 - 860 FPS w / 22.1 gr pellets  ( 36.3 FPE )

By comparison, we are getting  900 FPS w / 14.3 gr pellets ( 25.7 FPE ) 

In order to achieve 36.3 FPE w / 14.3 gr pellets, velocity would have to increase to 1070 FPS ( too fast for accuracy, but I would use heavier pellets )

In comparison, the increase from the 197 lb Average Force of the Moeller "RED" gas ram to the 253.5 lb Average Force of the Moeller "YELLOW" gas ram should increase velocity w / 14.3 gr pellets to 1029 FPS, yielding 33.6 FPE ( close enough for me ).

Of course, the .25 caliber guns have not been done, yet, either . . .

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 24, 2012, 05:10:10 PM
Guys,
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   CPHP   14.3   941.3   28.14155421
2      14.3   953.5   28.87575554
3      14.3   964.8   29.56422857
4      14.3   966   29.63781716
5      14.3   967.1   29.70535373
6      14.3   964.7   29.55810032
7      14.3   965.7   29.61941144
8      14.3   969.1   29.8283444
9      14.3   968.3   29.77911764
10      14.3   970.3   29.90226077
   Average      963.08   29.4589111
   Min      941.3   28.14155421
   Max      970.3   29.90226077
   Spread      29   1.760706557

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Shot   Pellet     Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   H&N FTT   20.06   852   32.34193817
2      20.06   850.5   32.22815835
3      20.06   851.7   32.31916616
4      20.06   849.8   32.17512971
5      20.06   849.4   32.14484724
6      20.06   851.4   32.29640218
7      20.06   853.6   32.46352429
8      20.06   852.7   32.39510403
9      20.06   851.8   32.32675594
10      20.06   852.5   32.37990933
   Average      851.54   32.30702437
   Min      849.4   32.14484724
   Max      853.6   32.46352429
   Spread      4.2   0.318677052
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Lambchops on April 24, 2012, 05:13:05 PM
I like waffles, who else likes waffles?
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 05:13:23 PM
I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Shot   Pellet     Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   H&N FTT   20.06   852   32.34193817
2      20.06   850.5   32.22815835
3      20.06   851.7   32.31916616
4      20.06   849.8   32.17512971
5      20.06   849.4   32.14484724
6      20.06   851.4   32.29640218
7      20.06   853.6   32.46352429
8      20.06   852.7   32.39510403
9      20.06   851.8   32.32675594
10      20.06   852.5   32.37990933
   Average      851.54   32.30702437
   Min      849.4   32.14484724
   Max      853.6   32.46352429
   Spread      4.2   0.318677052


Naughty boy  . . . Now, I have to re-calculate !

But accurate data is better anyway !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: WHITEFANG on April 24, 2012, 05:18:47 PM
NOT BAD #'S FOR A .25. I will take those anytime.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 05:58:18 PM
Guys,
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

Shot   Pellet   Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   CPHP   14.3   941.3   28.14155421

   Average      963.08   29.4589111

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Shot   Pellet     Grains   Velocity   FPE
1   H&N FTT   20.06   852   32.34193817

   Average      851.54   32.30702437
   


OK . . . The .25 caliber w / N-forcer "Yellow" was 32.3 FPE . . . Moeller "Yellow" should be 34 FPE

I wish I had some Force Numbers for the XL ram to compare.


HMM . . . Actually I DO !

The Average Force of the XL Nitro Piston works out to be 226 lb, based on an "EC" of .33 . . .  Slightly less than the N-Forcer "Yellow" .


Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 06:25:50 PM
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Mark,

During the time you had the N-Forcer gas ram "Yellow" gas ram installed, did you suffer any parts breakage ( other than the stock ) and did any parts, particularly the SEAR and other TRIGGER parts show any signs of premature or excessive wear ?

Thanks !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 24, 2012, 07:22:08 PM
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...

I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:

Mark,

During the time you had the N-Forcer gas ram "Yellow" gas ram installed, did you suffer any parts breakage ( other than the stock ) and did any parts, particularly the SEAR and other TRIGGER parts show any signs of premature or excessive wear ?

Thanks !

Dave

The sear showed no excessive wear, but while my .25 was cocked, I reached for a pellet, got distracted and the gun slipped from my hand. The shoulder cocking slot of the piston slipped off the sear and the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block. When I disassembled it, there was no apparent damage to the sear..or the cocking shoulder of the piston.
I felt very fortunate that my fingers were not close to the breech, or between the cocking lever and the stock. I am comfortable with the XL piston right now and they are about $30 shipped. If they last half as long as the N-Forcer or Moeller, I will be happy.

Mark
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 07:37:44 PM
The sear showed no excessive wear, but while my .25 was cocked, I reached for a pellet, got distracted and the gun slipped from my hand. The shoulder cocking slot of the piston slipped off the sear and the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block. When I disassembled it, there was no apparent damage to the sear..or the cocking shoulder of the piston.
I felt very fortunate that my fingers were not close to the breech, or between the cocking lever and the stock. I am comfortable with the XL piston right now and they are about $30 shipped. If they last half as long as the N-Forcer or Moeller, I will be happy.

Mark

This was NOT on a QUATTRO trigger equipped rifle . . .

Supposedly, the QUATTRO trigger is design to "NEVER" fire if dropped, even if the safety is off . . .

How were you able to determine what caused it, Mark, rather than a failure of the "Anti-Beartrap  Mechanism", for example.

Just hunting for facts to store away . . .

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 24, 2012, 07:48:15 PM
When you have all that energy stored, and held in place by less than 1/8 square inch of steel in engagement, it causes one to raise their eyebrows. Actually, the angle that it fell jarred the trigger mechanism, which moved in the stock. The bear trap actully moved, allowing the safety latch to move forward, allowing the trigger to release. I had adjusted and tuned the trigger for little travel and a light pull. Perhaps an untuned trigger might not have released. Not sure.......  :-\
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 07:51:26 PM
When you have all that energy stored, and held in place by less than 1/8 square inch of steel in engagement, it causes one to raise their eyebrows. Actually, the angle that it fell jarred the trigger mechanism, which moved in the stock. The bear trap actully moved, allowing the safety latch to move forward, allowing the trigger to release. I had adjusted and tuned the trigger for little travel and a light pull. Perhaps an untuned trigger might not have released. Not sure.......  :-\

Was that the only time there was a problem like that, Mark ? 

Did you make any changes to the rifle after that ?

Thanks,

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 24, 2012, 08:11:00 PM
That was the only problem. I have not shot the .25 since because of the bent barrel. ......that is the next project...
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 08:15:44 PM
That was the only problem. I have not shot the .25 since because of the bent barrel. ......that is the next project...

Mark,

Think it can be straightened ?

Bob has plans for a "barrel-straightener", of sorts, on GTA . . .

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/library/Charlies%20Barrel%20Tool.pdf (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/library/Charlies%20Barrel%20Tool.pdf)

Do you think you could adapt it to work for you ?

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Smackey54 on April 24, 2012, 08:38:48 PM
Just bought the eye bolts and wood today. Gonna give it a try. Nothing to lose.
Thanks!

Mark
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: WHITEFANG on April 24, 2012, 08:56:04 PM
You noticed no hairline cracks in the breach block when this was done? The HAtsan has beefed up the block top area. Barrels are pressed in block. I had NO bent barrel but a cracked breach block on a WFH not thur new HAtson.

So again!! These things are not toys with this much power. Safety Is the of the utmost. Stored Energy.
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Tarheel on April 24, 2012, 08:58:29 PM
Just bought the eye bolts and wood today. Gonna give it a try. Nothing to lose.
Thanks!

Mark

Mark,

I hope all goes well . . .

Best wishes & GOOD LUCK !

Dave
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: ray in wi on April 29, 2012, 09:44:35 AM
This has been one of the best posts I have ever read!! I really want to express my thanks and gratitude to all of you. I learned and gleaned a ton of information with out breaking out the spring compressor!!! LOL!
 Mike your efforts are truly inspiring. Thank you and thanks to all who unselfishly threw in their two cents.
With High Regards
Ray
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: Mike 4888blues on April 29, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
This has been one of the best posts I have ever read!! I really want to express my thanks and gratitude to all of you. I learned and gleaned a ton of information with out breaking out the spring compressor!!! LOL!
 Mike your efforts are truly inspiring. Thank you and thanks to all who unselfishly threw in their two cents.
With High Regards
Ray

 your welcome, any question  feel free, only thing I would change is the delrin piece I made for the end of the rams body, instead of making it 7/8'' to fit the 3/4'' rams body I like to make it smaller but  not tight just remove the extra 1/8'' of play
Title: Re: wfh moller gas piston conversion pics part #1/ now Pt #2 ( 900 fps )
Post by: john on April 29, 2012, 02:48:06 PM
...the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block...Mark
I submit with respect that the barrel straightener is fine for certain types of bend but not ideal for YOUR bend. The proper way to unbend is to apply a force equal and opposite to that which caused the unfortunate bend in the first place. Here is a very simple way to apply that very equal and opposite corrective force. Chuck up (edgewise, i.e. with a narrow edge sticking upward) a block of hard wood (i used a 3/4"X4"X8" piece of laminated plywood from my scrap pile) in your bench vice. Remove the stock. Stand flat footed with knees slightly bent. Holding the action upright and pointing upward, swing it down so that the bottom front of the compression tube hits the top edge of the wood block. This is not batting practice, but adjust your stance as needed, relax, think it through, and don't be in a hurry. The wood is hard enough to withstand repeated blows and soft enough not to damage the metal action. Repeated impacts will straighten the barrel where it needs to be straightened. Merely dropping the action down will probably not be sufficiently forceful enough to do the job, so swing it down firmly and accurately enough to not miss the wood. Repeat as needed until the barrel is straight enough. A straight edge (such as a metal meter stick) along the compression tube can be used to monitor the misalignment of the barrel. I did this to my breakbarrel after a similar incident; canceled out some unwanted droop at the same time. It is conceivable that the alive jam will bend the detent during this process; that did not happen to mine but even if it had, the detent is relatively easy to replace.

Edit: hmm...it appears that i forgot to mention an important detail in the above. For this to work, the alive jam spring must be replaced temporarily with a metal dowel to prevent the alive jam from receding into its hole.