Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 11:17:30 PMQuote from: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 10:59:16 PMQuote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 10:53:56 PMI will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added I will call them tomorrowMike,A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.Dave then what I need to ask them to do is se if we can get what a 155 bar? I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lolMike, The increase from 140 bar to 180 bar is 1.2857 . . . That is an increase of 28.57% . . . Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar and you will have "YELLOW" specs.Dave
Quote from: Tarheel on April 22, 2012, 10:59:16 PMQuote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 10:53:56 PMI will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added I will call them tomorrowMike,A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.Dave then what I need to ask them to do is se if we can get what a 155 bar? I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 22, 2012, 10:53:56 PMI will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added I will call them tomorrowMike,A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.Dave
I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Quote from: Paul68 on April 22, 2012, 10:23:52 PMOk, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change. As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet. I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort. Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.Hope you guys get it ironed out. The original piston that was in the wfh with the spring and big top hat was reading 958 fps. now Since I ruined the new J M seal and reinstalled the original seal which was fine as mentioned in a early post, The original seal was fine getting great fps in the spring and top hat set up. So now we know the moller ram reached 900 fps seal question is not a factor at this point! How ever being there no more top hat, and no way to add a equal weighted adapter that goes into the bottom of the piston to keep the rams arm centered and pivot freely / then we have to conclude are result are what they are. things are differnt because the spring is also out of the equasion not just the top hat! after the ram is placed in the receiver with out any adapters you have less then 1'' to make adapters for both ends of the ramthat' and the results are as follows 900fps periods what we are dealing with. you know the back and fourth stuff is getting to me its a real pita. the used seal was good enough to get 958fps with the spring and top hat then it is good enough to use in the test on the conversion.now at this point it comes down to the ram itself, yellow will be to much so.. I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change. As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet. I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort. Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.Hope you guys get it ironed out.
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 12:44:34 AM either that or just get a even exchange i have a red 125 and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both then
whats the cocking force on a stock 125?
I will call moller tomorrow. I don't want a yellow I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders or even a tool to release pressure. If the tool is inexpensive and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure drop/ I can then order a yellow test it, as well as adjust it I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps is ideal
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!Mark
Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.
Now I am excited. because this is it Dave.It all comes down to this. using the yellow as is or carefully depressurizing it lower.the mechanics are basic, if some one knows what there doing in the first place, Like anything else. It would be nice to have the same piston for any rifle but made with different thickness to see how the weight will effect the out come. but we do not have that option with the wfh and the hatsan 125 sniper.It is more work to balance the springer but at least you can get different springs and top hats for the most favorable results. I am finally stoked now as the conclusion will wrap this up. the whole project is down to this now A /making the two parts for the rams conversion, ( that's been done several ways) B / ordering the right ram and possibly the depressurizing tool for the moller rams this is where we are at I am stoked.I am having the other GTA members rams returned back to me , they will be exchanged for the moller yellow.I have not been able to thank you Dave and the scotchamo guy, sorry cant remember his name off hand, but I will be sending him pictures, when I tear down the sniper 125 next as well as posting them, that wont be until after I get the new rams back .
Quote from: Mike 4888blues on April 23, 2012, 03:36:15 AM I will call moller tomorrow. I don't want a yellow I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders or even a tool to release pressure. If the tool is inexpensive and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure drop/ I can then order a yellow test it, as well as adjust it I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps is idealThe tool to fully degas a gas spring is simple. Also, I think someone could make a simple adapter that would allow them to charge a gas spring with air from a hand PCP pump. That would be good for experimenting and getting just the "right" pressure.Your reasoning with 14.3gr pellets and 950fps is exactly how I think. There is no reason to have any more power in a .22 caliber airgun. 950fps puts you right at the high end of the sweet spot for distance and accuracy (in my opinion).The gas springs respond well when using a low friction seal and light piston. A looser fitting, high quality seal will probably get you there even with the red label spring. You are already at 900fps, so it might be better to work on improving the the efficiency a little rather than the adding brute force.I went from 10fpe (30% efficiency) to 12fpe (36% efficiency) by experimenting until I found the right seal and piston weight. The low friction seal made the most difference. And the weight changes were used to fine tune it for a particular pellet weight.