Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor?
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Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor?
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Topic: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor? (Read 35728 times))
guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
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Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #20 on:
January 25, 2017, 12:51:24 PM »
Yes, the high side dryer has a very limited capacity.
That's why you SHOULD pair it with something to do bulk drying. Otherwise, you will use up the media life very quickly. Because the Shoebox does not have a debulking capability (no separator post compression / no intrinsic pre-dryer) you should have an intermediate pressure drying filter before the Shoebox.
I would go with an intermediate pressure dryer as the debulking step because pre-drying at atmospheric won't let you use as much media capacity before the output of the filter goes up too high in humidity. An intermediate pressure drier lets you use more of the media capacity and still deliver lower humidity air TO the Shoebox. That leaves just a little for the high side dryer to scrub out.
Run just a high side dryer and it has to absorb ALL the water content all by itself.
Use your legs and back (intermediate filter or mechanical separator) to do the heavy lift. Use your fingers (high pressure dryer) to make the fine adjustments.
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Seattle WA
FuzzyGrub
GTA Senior Contributor
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Real Name: John
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #21 on:
January 25, 2017, 02:13:43 PM »
My tanks are too new to have needed their first hydro test, so have a couple of questions related to that and oxidation of the aluminum. I know there is some form of physical inspection that is done on the tank. Does that include a bore-scope type device to check for internal oxidation? I thought it was just an external inspection. Removing the SS valve every 5 years, for the hydro, would seem to be sufficient to check oxidation on threads, but that can be easily done on a more frequent basis. Or is this a more galvanic process between dis-similar metals with the water vapor as catalyst? The reason I ask, for the most part aluminum oxidation is forming a protective coat, I thought. Has anyone had a tank fail inspection due to oxidation?
Frank, I'm still with you with two HF filters and only using small tanks.
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Rural New York
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Frank in Fairfield
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement."
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Real Name: Frank
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #22 on:
January 25, 2017, 02:46:26 PM »
John,
What I know from hydro-testing is...
A physical exterior inspection.
Remove and install another valve.
Inflate to 7000psi.
Throw the tank into a pool of water for a certain period of time and check for leaks.
Deflate the tank and replace the orginal valve (don't forget the valve oring).
Put sticker on tank.
Return to owner.
I asked my local fire department who did their hydro testing?
"We don't."
"Five years...new tanks."
I hear there is some thought of extending the total lifespan of the carbon fiber tanks. But I haven't heard anything recently. Maybe Joe in Huntington Beach would know but, he is in the business of selling tanks so maybe he would keep the information to himself.
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guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
yes
Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #23 on:
January 25, 2017, 02:47:34 PM »
What I've been able to dig up regarding aluminum tank failures and inspections is primarily regarding the solid aluminum tanks. A full inspection is supposed to include visual inspection including use of lighting and view devices inside the tank. Apparently 80% of the tanks condemned during inspection were NOT on the basis of the hydro results, but visual detection of cracks, pitting, and thread degradation. It seems a hydro in and of itself is insufficient. A trained inspector should visually detect those defects.
Now that was with the solid aluminum tanks. The carbon fiber wound tanks that we are using have a thinner aluminum bladder that manages to withstand the pressure by virtue of the wound fiber shell. Thread issues are the same but we have a thinner metal wall.
Crevice Corrosion and Stress Corrosion Cracking are the kinds I'm most worried about at our threads and tank walls. See w w w.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=187
It's not like we are seeing our tanks blowing up left and right. It's a rare event. I just don't want to be an event.
«
Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 02:51:07 PM by guykuo
»
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Seattle WA
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
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Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #24 on:
January 25, 2017, 03:03:01 PM »
I've also read that they are supposed to measure the water the cylinder displaced in the test chamber. Then they are supposed to pressurize the cylinder and see if the volume displaced increases. If it does or too much they fail the cylinder.
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
FuzzyGrub
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 7135
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Real Name: John
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #25 on:
January 25, 2017, 03:34:54 PM »
Frank, I have heard that too, but no details. I suspect a ruling would have to come from the DOT, though.
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Rural New York
1701P, 2201P, & 2501 Pistols,
1720T/Prod/Fortitude based( 7 ), Mrods( 5 ), SAM,
Sumatra 25 carbine, 357 Bulldog, Walther CP88 ( 2 ),
Akelas 22 & 25,
ATI Nova Liberty Wood 177 & 22,
P1, A4-P, & DPMS Full-Auto Fun
guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
yes
Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #26 on:
January 25, 2017, 03:48:22 PM »
I ran into an article by a tank inspection company that gave some details regarding the DOT and extending the lifespan beyond 15 years. Gas industry feedback was against making such a change in operating procedure. After that feedback, the DOT put that proposal on the back burner.
Also some interesting stuff about eddy current testing of tanks. Doesn't seem to be universally applicable to all tanks. The alloy used can produce false positives and fail tanks needlessly.
I don't have all the links handy but here are two... Again these are for solid aluminum tanks.
w w w.psicylinders.com/inspectors/library/35-cracking-and-ruptures-of-scba-and-scuba-aluminum-cylinders-made-from-6351-alloy
w w w.luxfercylinders.com/press-releases/aluminium-tanks-what-every-diver-should-know
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Seattle WA
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
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Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #27 on:
January 26, 2017, 07:38:54 PM »
Hi All,
I was able to get the membrane air dryer for a real good price. the seller accepted my offer of $80:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Applied-Materials-AMAT-4020-00172-SMC-IDG1-N02-P-DRYER-20C-CDA-1-4FNPT-10LPM-/281755714629?hash=item4199f30445:g:aTMAAOSwstxVYD~e
I'm trying not to buy retail but to find good deals or used in very good condition. This air drier has a 10 year life when used 10 hours a day as long as it does not get contaminated with oil and I guess dirt too. That's 36,500 hours. I will never come close to that usage.
I don't think the design of the aftercooler i pictured will work for my needs. There are too many loops where water will get trapped whatever orientation it is in.
I think a plate type, parallel flow transmission cooler with tanks on either end will allow gravity to move condensed water out of the way if the tanks are mounted top and bottom. Unless I can find a small one it will be overkill. Oh well.
Thanks,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
yes
Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #28 on:
January 26, 2017, 08:17:09 PM »
Interesting alternative drying method.
I can't find the working pressure for the filter you linked.
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Seattle WA
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
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Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #29 on:
January 26, 2017, 09:29:57 PM »
Guykuo,
I've attached the closest I could find to a spec sheet. It says .3 - .85 MPa. So about 43.5 - 123.3 psi.
Thanks,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
yes
Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #30 on:
January 26, 2017, 09:32:44 PM »
Sorry,
I forgot to post the link to the full document:
http://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/IDG.pdf
Thanks,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
yes
Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #31 on:
January 27, 2017, 12:10:07 PM »
The long useful life is especially enticing for your debulking dryer. Nice find.
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Seattle WA
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
yes
Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #32 on:
January 27, 2017, 12:19:58 PM »
Hi All,
I found my aftercooler. I bought a Hayden Automotive 1240 Heavy Duty Oil Cooler:
There was one on Amazon Warehouse deals for $37.45 last night so I grabbed it. There is also a 1215 model for $21. I'm not sure if the picture is for the actual item but the 1215 is 4.5 inches wide versus 6.5 for the 1240. I was afraid the 1215 would only have 2 long tubes. It's supposed to be copper construction with "swirl" technology lol in the tubes to exchange more heat. I am going to run Simple Green through it in both directions to make sure it is oil free.
I will mount it vertically and rotated a couple degrees so the condensed water runs out. I'm hoping, since it is made of copper, to offset the inlet and seal off the factory inlet. I can solder copper tubing but I've never brazed. I guess I will learn if I need to.
So now I'm still looking for a particle filter, an oil separator, and a water separator. I liked what I saw in the SMC filters and they looked like very good construction with reasonably priced consumables.
I will need one or two pressure regulators. The membrane dryer states that a regulator should be mounted downstream of it. The Shoebox states that it needs between 85 and 100 psi. I don't know exactly my compressors shutoff point so I have to find that out. Also I want to replace the mickey mouse regulator and gauges on the Sears compressor and add a "t" with two quick disconnects. While I have that apart I will look for the leak that has plagued it since I bought it.
I'm also going to mount the the aftercooler and filters to a board and maybe eventually to a square tube frame. Maybe
(I have a dc arc welder I bought cheap that I have yet to learn how to use.)
So compressor, filter board and Shoebox will be independent.
Lot's of work but it's coming together.
Thank you,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
yes
Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #33 on:
January 27, 2017, 12:23:18 PM »
Quote from: guykuo on January 27, 2017, 12:10:07 PM
The long useful life is especially enticing for your debulking dryer. Nice find.
Guykuo,
Thank you but I got lucky in my google searches. I didn't know anything about dryers or filters or cooler 2 weeks ago. Like I said, I geek out when I want to create something. I love researching and learning.
lol
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
yes
Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #34 on:
January 28, 2017, 12:38:25 AM »
I picked the particle, oil and water separator/filter. I decided on a single unit versus 2 separate units, SMC AFF2C-N02C-T
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMC-1-4-Main-Line-Filter-w-Element-Service-Indicator-Auto-Drain-10-CFM-/331334610383?hash=item4d2514edcf:g:MT8AAOSwd0BVqRs8
Once my wallet recovers I'll pick up two regulators.
I think one between the filter board and the compressor but I'n not sure of the one downstream of the membrane dryer.
So the order I am thinking for the filter board is: regulator, aftercooler, particle/oil/water filter, membrane drier and lastly the Drierite unit. Should I put the second regulator at the end of the line right before the Shoebox or should I put it between the membrane and the Drierite unit?
What are good options for interconnects? I was thinking flexible hose between the compressor, the filter board and the Shoebox.
I'm not sure what to use between the components on the filter board. I wouldn't mind flexible copper tubing but I'm worried about vibration. There is braided rubber type hose but I'd rather not use barbs and hose clamps.
Thank you,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
yes
Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #35 on:
January 28, 2017, 03:12:16 AM »
I made a layout schematic to visualize. Take it easy on me as it's the first time doing something like that.
Thanks,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
yes
Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #36 on:
January 28, 2017, 10:44:11 AM »
That looks like a reasonable configuration to me.
Most of your connections are going to be on the lower pressure side of things. So, I think your connections will be more forgiving. I agree with avoiding hose clamps, though.
With the unlimited capacity of the membrane dryer, you have a good fighting chance.
Remember my calculations in the other thread about drying requirements for BETWEEN main and Shoebox compressors. We need to bring RH down to 1.8% RH at 72 F and intermediate 100 PSI pressure. The problem with that was if you only used a desiccant medium, it would lose its ability to get the air down that dry when on 1/10 of its capacity was used up. After that, the output RH% would not longer be low enough to keep the 4500 PSI output also non-condensing at room temperature. Since, the color indicators change somewhere over 50%, that would mean 4/5 of the running time your dessicant dryer is already be "spent" before it changes color.
Your adding the molecular sieve ahead of the desiccant changes things greatly in your favor. You effectively increase your drying capacity multifold.
Your desiccant ends up seeing a much lower load. It still will only be 1/10 of its capacity usable and won't change color until too late, but I'm thinking your molecular sieve could delay that state greatly if it does the job of dropping RH% down to the 1-2% range by itself.
I recall reading somewhere about someone rigging up a vertical metal column post their Shoebox to act as a water separator.
If that was large enough to...
1. Allow cooling the output high pressure air down to room temperature
2. Have enough volume to contain all the condensate, you would have an additional bulk drying stage.
That's really the first thing I would redesign on the Shoebox. Add a chamber in the block for condensate collection and removal.
An after market add-on would need extra engineering due to the need to withstand 4500 PSI.
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Seattle WA
FuzzyGrub
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 7135
yes
Real Name: John
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #37 on:
January 28, 2017, 11:51:48 AM »
Taso,
You are headed toward the most elaborate SB system I've seen. Once done, make sure you post on the SB forum.
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Rural New York
1701P, 2201P, & 2501 Pistols,
1720T/Prod/Fortitude based( 7 ), Mrods( 5 ), SAM,
Sumatra 25 carbine, 357 Bulldog, Walther CP88 ( 2 ),
Akelas 22 & 25,
ATI Nova Liberty Wood 177 & 22,
P1, A4-P, & DPMS Full-Auto Fun
Taso1000
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 3610
yes
Real Name: Taso
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #38 on:
January 28, 2017, 01:37:35 PM »
John,
Thank you. I hope it's effective. In theory it should be.
The .2 cfm flow rate of the Shoebox helps a lot. But it takes a lot more time to fill a tank versus other boosters. I also wanted to start the filling of a cylinder and leave it run over night. I didn't want to babysit the whole process.
I do overkill very often though. I like eking out that last bit of efficiency. I did save money where I thought used components wouldn't affect performance.
Now to get it all assembled and see how it works. It would be cool if I could measure the actual humidity of a filtered air sample. Maybe I could capture some filtered air in a jar and put it in the freezer. Once it freezes I and see what ice crystals are there?
Thanks,
Taso
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Orland Park, Illinois
guykuo
Shooter
Posts: 92
yes
Real Name: Guy Kuo
Re: Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor.
«
Reply #39 on:
January 28, 2017, 02:05:24 PM »
Yeah. The formal testing labs are pricey. You're talking $200+ to have one sample analyzed.
Dive shops have to do it, but that is too expensive for us air gunners.
However, there ARE some reasonably priced (<$100), visual, high pressure, humidity indicators that will let one check moisture level coming out of a Shoebox or other high pressure compressor.
Some dive compressor owners who want absolute certainty that their output is dry use them. These change color if humidity goes up and have a clear window built to withstand 6000 PSI pressure.
Because they work on the HIGH side output, they indicate what is actually coming out of the system and warn you before you put excess water vapor into your tank.
www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp
$60
www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp
$11
Cool! looks like I'm allowed to post actual links now.
«
Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 09:52:42 AM by guykuo
»
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Seattle WA
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Water removal recommendations for Shoebox compressor?