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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Engineering- Research & Development => Topic started by: DIY_guy on February 04, 2017, 10:03:31 PM
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When I bought this Benjamin Discovery, I installed high scope rings because I expected that getting my fingers and a pellet into the breech would be problematic. I was correct in that assumption. Even with high rings, pellet loading was not as easy as I'd hoped. This spawned the idea of purchasing a clip/magazine for pellet loading. That search did not turn up much so I set out to make my own so I designed a simple gravity feed hopper and printed it out on my makerbot. Id already printed out a sun shield for the scope and a barrel band and a lead dust collector. Here is what the hopper looks like
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/IMG_0393_zpsgjyqmqj9.jpg)
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/IMG_0390_zps7tytikiw.jpg)
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/IMG_0394_zpsutrvurv2.jpg)
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/IMG_0391_zpsnjie1ylj.jpg)
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/IMG_0392_zpso8wtnyyc.jpg)
Here is a video of the first prototype.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHsg0unRtkk&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHsg0unRtkk&feature=youtu.be)
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Loading using your device is certainly faster than the method I use - hand feeding the pellet.
I will be watching for updates on production, pricing, etc.
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Man!! That is nice job... You are making the best out of a cheap rifle and make it more DESIRABLE.... ;D ;D
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Awesome! You interested in selling a later version or sharing the files?
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Man!! That is nice job... You are making the best out of a cheap rifle and make it more DESIRABLE.... ;D ;D
Necessity is the mother of invention. 3D printers are the fathers.
The joy is in the doing. Ive only had the disco for 4 days and Ive already designed and made several parts for it with the printer.
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That pretty cool, interesting how sometimes we miss the simplest things.
I look forward to hearing how it works for you.
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Great idea
Thank you for the post, pictures and the video
Dave
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Looks good and will be a big improvement over loading single pellets.
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Very interesting. Will there be a lower profile one in the mix for those who have lower scope rings?
Joe
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Nice job on the pellet hopper.... Those look like pretty tall scope rings?....
Bob
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Very cool 8)
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Looks like our new best friend might be onto something here... Would you care to provide some files?
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Pure genius. When can i buy one from you?
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Pure genius. When can i buy one from you?
X2. I sure would want one.... ;)
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Cool idea Ron. I'm glad I have a Disco, looks like some nice accessories might be available soon.
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You might be onto something Ron. Simple, no moving parts, don't need to modify the gun. I wondered if the pellets would hang up, but they didn't. Just need to play with the bolt a little.
Steve
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Nice Idea and it seems to work very well!
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Very cool! I wish something like this was around when I bought a repeater breech that cost almost as mush as my gun. Keep up the good work.
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You might be onto something Ron. Simple, no moving parts, don't need to modify the gun. I wondered if the pellets would hang up, but they didn't. Just need to play with the bolt a little.
Steve
After running a lot more pellets through the "Hopper Dropper" there is the occasional mis-fed pellet that drops head first. A little jigle of the gun gets it to lay flat. The video I showed was with the gun in a gun vise perfectly horizontal so there was no jiggling allowed if a pellet dropped head first. Then a toothpick was used to re-position the pellet but as I shoot it out of the vise, a slight jiggle correctly positions a mis-fed pellet. I need to prefect the sliding door at the top that keeps the pellets from pouring out during said "jiggling"
Again, this was proto #1 which is where all the glitches are first discovered. Right now Im working on a camera mount for the scope and another 3D printed Lead Dust Collector. While proto #1 of the LDC made the gun very quiet, I wonder if I re-design my baffles if I can do better.
As for selling these. IF that were to happen, thats a long way down the road. My company (Innovative Outdoorsman LLC) is already swamped with work and next week is the beginning of the trade show season so we will have a booth at several outdoor/hunting shows which takes up a great deal of time. On top of this I work a full time job so the thought of adding a new product line is on th back burner.
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Nicely done, sir!
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Well done indeed! 8) Taking nothing away, I would consider trying to design for a lower scope mount. Certainly a great job! :)
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Often the first prototype doesn't work at all. They always need to be tweaked, have the bugs worked out. If anyone expects a first prototype to work perfectly, they are setting themselves up for disappointment. Your hopper is awesomely simple.
I WANT ONE!!!!!!
Steve
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Very interesting. Will there be a lower profile one in the mix for those who have lower scope rings?
Joe
If there ever is, definitely put me down for one in .22 cal.
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Me too! Nice, especially for a first proto.
Very interesting. Will there be a lower profile one in the mix for those who have lower scope rings?
Joe
If there ever is, definitely put me down for one in .22 cal.
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Looks like someone needs to work on a friction for that darn bolt that pops up every shot. I did it to mine. Drilled a hole in the breech above the bolt, tapped it, put in a small steel ball, spring and set screw, ground a small indent in the bolt, and now I have an adjustable bolt tension so it's not popping open on me when I'm out hunting.
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Well done, great job!
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Looks like someone needs to work on a friction for that darn bolt that pops up every shot. I did it to mine. Drilled a hole in the breech above the bolt, tapped it, put in a small steel ball, spring and set screw, ground a small indent in the bolt, and now I have an adjustable bolt tension so it's not popping open on me when I'm out hunting.
Being new to this gun I did not know if that was normal that the bolt opened after each shot. Seems harmless enough.
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Actually, no, it's not normal. Mine didn't do that. But the bolt on all my guns (Disco and 22xx, 13xx) all have "floating" bolt that are often in the "up" position when I pull up to shoot at a rabbit and I feel the blast of air in my face as the bolt blows back and lose half my fps. It's always been a problem with these guns and you have to double-check the bolt every time before you fire (I've seen many seasoned airgun hunters, myself included, forget to do that). The Crosman 392 has a nice friction adjustment on it, but the Disco, 22xx and 13xx guns suffer from this problem and Crosman really needs to address this.
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Rather than 3 printed parts, it might be good to consider making it 4-- have the pellet guide be swappable for different calibers or odd fitting pellets. Then rather than making multiple different versions for each caliber you make the same base unit and swap out only the "pellet guide" or whatever you'd call it.
I would imagine some would like a smaller unit, say half height that only holds 5 rather than 10 pellets as well.
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That's a great idea! Well done.
Since you are printing these, maybe you could add a small wedge on the inside (where the pellets rest), so the pellet will ride/slide down it, with the wedge between the head and the skirt? That seems like it would keep the pellet straight....maybe
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Rather than 3 printed parts, it might be good to consider making it 4-- have the pellet guide be swappable for different calibers or odd fitting pellets. Then rather than making multiple different versions for each caliber you make the same base unit and swap out only the "pellet guide" or whatever you'd call it.
I would imagine some would like a smaller unit, say half height that only holds 5 rather than 10 pellets as well.
I'm wondering if, in the end, you are going to have to figure out how to spring feed them like all magazines. I have a feeling that a gravity-feed mechanism is always going to have problems feeding properly. IMHO
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Ive fed quite a few pellets down this thing and have never once had a hang up. I designed the chute to allow free flowing but not allow the pellets to get crossed or to hang up in the chute. Gravity is great and pellets are heavy.
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Count me in for one of these if you decide to refine the design and start selling them!
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When I get more free time and send more pellets through it, I will work on any improvements I can think of.
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I spent some time this morning redesigning the 22 cal Hopper Dropper for lower scope rings. I was able to get the profile down to a gap of .6". (bottom of 1" scope tube to top of barrel) Its still holds 10 pellets. I improved other features. I will print a prototype to check the results.
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/disco_clip_zpscxumxnmx.jpg)
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I am predicting a bright future for this “Hopper Dropper”. Very interesting concept.
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A weak spring with a fitted "follower" (depending on the type of pellet) could make it "auto-load", though finding a spring that is soft enough to allow a lot of compression without deformation would be tricky in a linear design. A coil spring ala a pellet drum would be more complex but circumvents that issue. In the other hand, it also moves the pellets further against multiple surfaces (causing more friction). With softer/thin skirted pellets, more movement means more potential for damage.
I like the simple hopper design, and Ron (DIY-Guy) hit a home run.
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Based on usage thus far I cant see the need for any sort of spring. Gravity is free and works every time.
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That is awesome! great job! I believe you may have mentioned something about the slide cover on top not staying put. What if you inlayed a magnet into the "hopper dropper" and then inlay a small piece of steel into the lid to keep it in the closed position. Just a thought...great job
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Ive solved the issue by changing the part profile. Now it slides with a bit of friction so it stay closed when you want it closed.
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folllowing with interest
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Update. I made proto #2 as pictured on page 2. I observe that if I pull the bolt back as normal speed (the speed I would pull it back while hunting and reloading) , the pellet drops perfectly every time. If I draw back the bolt while tipping the gun to its side I do a bolt action powderburner to ensure Im loading a round, I also get perfect drop and pellet alignment eery time.
If however, I draw the bolt back painfully slow to watch the drop, the pellets will drop head first requiring a little "jiggle" to make them lay flat in the breech. This requires drawing the bolt back far slower than I ever would but it was worth the exercise.
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A short video of Proto #2 of the 10 shot hopper dropper.
Lower profile for low rings
More resistance in the sliding door
Better pellet drop.
In the video I show a few drops of the last pellet in the hopper because Im finding that pellet #10 was the most likely to to drop poorly in proto #1 because it does not have the weight of other pellets pushing down on it. The first pellet (with the weight of 9 pellets above it) almost rockets out of the chute but in proto #1, the last pellet had no weight pushing down on it. I cured that with proto #2.
When Im in the proto phase of a project I change the color of the filament I use so I dont confuse parts laying on the bench.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqIq7D2h5Oo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqIq7D2h5Oo)
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Well done.. I really like it.
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I be in for one.. I was thinking of making something like this...
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A short video of Proto #2 of the 10 shot hopper dropper.
Lower profile for low rings
More resistance in the sliding door
Better pellet drop.
In the video I show a few drops of the last pellet in the hopper because Im finding that pellet #10 was the most likely to to drop poorly in proto #1 because it does not have the weight of other pellets pushing down on it. The first pellet (with the weight of 9 pellets above it) almost rockets out of the chute but in proto #1, the last pellet had no weight pushing down on it. I cured that with proto #2.
When Im in the proto phase of a project I change the color of the filament I use so I dont confuse parts laying on the bench.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqIq7D2h5Oo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqIq7D2h5Oo)
It looks to me... Like you are on to something with this Ron ! Good Job ! Looks like a Winner too ! - Tom
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From the point of view of what I would like...... I think I would prefer a very small unit. I"d be willing to have fewer pellets in the HD to reduce the size of the unit. I "think" I'd be happy with maybe 5 pellets. Don't know what others would like.
I freaking like it!!!!!
Steve
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Congratulations Ron, outstanding job! Question: in the video it kinda looked like the scope & mounts were canted to the right to allow clearance. Yes/No? May be just an optical illusion. :-\ Sorry to hear you're not thinking of selling them any time soon. I'm sure there's a lot of Disco owners, including me, that would be buyers!
Ed
BTW, Great name as well!
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Congratulations Ron, outstanding job! Question: in the video it kinda looked like the scope & mounts were canted to the right to allow clearance. Yes/No? May be just an optical illusion. :-\ Sorry to hear you're not thinking of selling them any time soon. I'm sure there's a lot of Disco owners, including me, that would be buyers!
Ed
BTW, Great name as well!
No, Nothing canted or mod'd on the scope or rings. Those are stock. Cabelas scope and leupold shoot through rings.
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/reticle3_zpseg08ku0d.jpg)
As for selling these. Im getting blasted with requests to make and offer for sale. I would not know how to price them if I did sell. Even then I would first send a couple out to serious Disco shooters for comments and critique and refinements. (Im getting tons of requests for testers as well). Problem is Im so swamped with my full time job, my own company and its the sports show season so every weekend is in a new city for a 3 day shorts show and the week in between is prepping for the next show. Couple that with the fact that Im on the board of directors for the Wisconsin Bowhunting Museum Foundation in charge of liquidating excess historical archery/bowhunting items via EBay and the fact is Im up to my eyeballs in things to do. If I get a spare moment, I will continue testing and improving. Ive learned there is no reason to rush an item to market prior to proper testing/eval because the first customers will kill you with reviews and comments on how the product could be better.
Due diligence, Verification, validation, testing and repeat. Then its time to offer for sale.
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I know little about 3 D printing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you send a 3D image with dimensions to a company that prints stuff for a living, it's in the mail on the way to your house the next day right?
What if you were to sell the info required and guys print it on their equipment, or have someone print it for them.
Just a thought.
Steve
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3D printing and new product design is what I do. I do it in my full time job and my own company. Certainly I could give away the intellectual property for others but its been suggested here and via PM that this is a very marektable item. I am entertaining the making and selling of these but not until is got all the kinks fleshed out. While Ie got decades of design and prototyping under my belt Im still new to (very new) and I only got this Disco 5 days ago. Its my first PCP so I dont know what I dont know which is why Im sharing the concept with a this very experienced community.
Personally Im thinking this is perhaps a $15 to $20 item and there seems to be interest and demand but only if its good and dependable. Ive made 5 items for this Disco on my printer thus far out of what I deem needs/wants. I expect I will make more but Ive only owned it for 5 days so far.
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Thanks for the info Ron. Sounds like there aren't enough hours in the day for you. Perfecting a product takes time and we all want instant gratification.
Steve
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I would be interested in a few as they will work on the 22xx and 13xx guns also.
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Ron--Thanks for the clarification re. the scope position and those Leupold rings. I was ignorant of their design. I'll be following this and hopefully at some point you'll see your way clear to sell them. Re. pricing, I think you could add a few more bucks to your guesstimate and still sell plenty of 'em. ;)
Ed
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Ron--Thanks for the clarification re. the scope position and those Leupold rings. I was ignorant of their design. I'll be following this and hopefully at some point you'll see your way clear to sell them. Re. pricing, I think you could add a few more bucks to your guesstimate and still sell plenty of 'em. ;)
Ed
I am right aling behind Ed on this... Most of us are tear betwen going to the BNM breach or stay with the steel breach.. Even at 45$ you would find there is a HUGE potential for this kind of addition... If you decided to sell them when POLISHED, you better buy 3 more printers i think..... ;) ;)
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Nicely done. I'll be looking into one of these if they ever hit the shelves. ;D
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3D printing and new product design is what I do. I do it in my full time job and my own company. Certainly I could give away the intellectual property for others but its been suggested here and via PM that this is a very marektable item. I am entertaining the making and selling of these but not until is got all the kinks fleshed out. While Ie got decades of design and prototyping under my belt Im still new to (very new) and I only got this Disco 5 days ago. Its my first PCP so I dont know what I dont know which is why Im sharing the concept with a this very experienced community.
Personally Im thinking this is perhaps a $15 to $20 item and there seems to be interest and demand but only if its good and dependable. Ive made 5 items for this Disco on my printer thus far out of what I deem needs/wants. I expect I will make more but Ive only owned it for 5 days so far.
You could always sell rights and plans to someone willing to produce them. Quick way to make a buck.
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Excellent and simple idea!!!
Keep us informed. When the time comes you can list them in the Hobbyist Classifieds!!!
Looking forward to seeing them there.
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Once again sleep eludes me (which can be both a blessing and a curse) It allowed to conjure up some improvements to the Hopper Dropper. Rather than lay there, I fired up the laptop and revised the CAD model.
Post-processing 3D printed parts can kill you (its labor) that that should be avoided. Ideally you want to take a completed part off a 3D printer and use it or package it for shipment. In this case the post processing was tapping two holes. Since this is a plastic part and end users will want to over-tighten, its expected that thread stripping will take place. To that end I got rid of the post processing tapping and created a pocket for a hex nut. Then I reduced the fastener count by 50% and added material to enhance the grab/holding power of that single fastener.
I also added a viewing port so the end user can see when they are getting down to the last few pellets. I made a few other improvements that are too minor to detail here.
Prototype #3 is printing in the super-fantastic-plastic-machine right now.
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/disco_clip3_zps1rfyryvq.jpg)
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This is awesome!
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Gotta love that pellet sight slot. Again, great job and put me on the list of buyers if you do start to sell. I'll test that puppy out too! ;D
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How tall do the scope mounts need to be?
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I was able to get the profile down to a gap of .6". (bottom of 1" scope tube to top of barrel) So long as there is a gap of .6 or greater it would fit. A dime is about .68" tall when standing on edge. If you can pass a dime between you scope and the top of the barrel, it would fit with room to spare. 9 quarters stacked on one another is .62" so you have a gauge right in your pocket. ;)
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/disco_clip_zpscxumxnmx.jpg)
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Its been my experience that as a designer, we get married to an idea and cant divorce ourselves from a certain design direction and its very hard to deviate from that course. Ive always tried to avoid that pit fall. Such was the case with the Initial “Hopper Droper”. Having taken that design concept to fruition, I then stepped back and put on my “consumer” hat and said what if I were to buy this thing? What would I dislike about?
Then I designed another version that I like better and I think others will as well. The initial hopper dropper was affixed to the gun with a screw and was rather large in profile (foot print). 100% of the device stayed with the gun at all times. This may pose a problem that I discovered while pumping up the gun. The options were to lay it on the bolt side or the hopper side. Laying it on hopper side exposed the hopper to damage and the infiltration of dirt.
I then came up with a removable (6 shot) clip (opposite of the bolt) that greatly reduces the side profile when its removed as well as when its on the gun. When the hopper portion of the device is removed during pumping or being placed in a case, the widest part of the gun returns the being the stock and or scope. A bolt-on attachment that accepts the 6 shot clip stays attached to the gun without increasing the footprint size. It allows for even the lowest of scope mouunts. Im printing proto #1 of this new design now and will test.
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Looking forward to it!
Ed
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The first prototype of "Disco Six Shooter" proved successful. This new direction allows the user to affix a small bracket near the breech that is low profile and unobtrusive but allows the user to install a removable "clip" that holds 6 pellets. Early tests were promising and prompted the creation of a 10 shot version of the removable clip. More testing to follow.
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Excellent! Hope to see the newest design soon on you tube!
Ed
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Looks like it attaches to the rail as well as the barrel. Would it fit similar airguns like the qb series? If not, I guess the design could be modified... ;)
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If you are asking about the hopper dropper and the related pictures earlier in this thread, That concept has been abandoned for a better design that I have not shown here yet. The new design (Which has not been shown here yet in picture nor video) is a new design direction and a real improvement over the earlier concept. The fixed (stationary) portion of the new design concept attaches directly to a Disco and Maximus. Whether it fits any other air guns, I cannot say s I dont know.
The new design will offer the user the option of inserting either a 6 shot or 10 shot clip/magazine into the holder the attaches directly above the breech. The 6 shooter was a smashing success so Im printing a 10 shot version right now that I expect to perform equally well.
Kicking around the idea of filing a provisional patent on this new design. (Which is why no disclosures in picture or video form have been made here)
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Great stuff, Ron. I read this entire thread wondering if you would make some form of easily removable solution.
I am also pleased you have determined to protect your intellectual property. A great invention should be rewarded with crazy cash, brother!
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I dont anticipate "crazy cash" from this but I do see the value in protecting one's intellectual property. I hold many patents. (Mostly for medical devices and methods) and Ive filed patent applications for myself in the past. In this case, Ive now prepared the artwork and documentation for a provisional patent that I will file next week. Ive filed several provisional patents. Its cost me only $65 and 8 weeks of wait time.
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Gotcha. Can't wait to see the new/latest version :D
Is it still gravity fed?
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Glad to see you're taking steps to safeguard your work before some @&%#^*! steals it! ;)
Ed
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This thread got me thinking about a hand-held pellet loading device, similar to an extension of your fingers. Does anyone make something you can load .22 pellets into and then position it over the Disco breech and release a pellet? I've seen the Pellet Pen, but this aligns pellets nose to base, for loading into a break barrel airgun. What's needed is something that holds them so they can be dropped sideways rather than in-line with the Pen.
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I would be interested in a couple of the newest version when the patent and testing is complete and they are ready for sale to the public.
Mike
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This thread got me thinking about a hand-held pellet loading device, similar to an extension of your fingers. Does anyone make something you can load .22 pellets into and then position it over the Disco breech and release a pellet? I've seen the Pellet Pen, but this aligns pellets nose to base, for loading into a break barrel airgun. What's needed is something that holds them so they can be dropped sideways rather than in-line with the Pen.
That right there is a great idea. I'd buy one.
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What's needed is something that holds them so they can be dropped sideways rather than in-line with the Pen.
I will start modeling that now... Expect a prototype in 3 weeks ;) Although I have no idea why that's needed if Ron's magazine did work
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This thread got me thinking about a hand-held pellet loading device, similar to an extension of your fingers. Does anyone make something you can load .22 pellets into and then position it over the Disco breech and release a pellet? I've seen the Pellet Pen, but this aligns pellets nose to base, for loading into a break barrel airgun. What's needed is something that holds them so they can be dropped sideways rather than in-line with the Pen.
I've thought of this a few times times but never actually took the time to try and draw it,
It would be useful for many PCPs.
Ron,
Excellent innovation and continued improvements!
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I will take up the progression of this project on Monday. For the next 3 days we are working a deer hunting show in Central WI.
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b452/staysharpguide/wausau%20show%202017_zpswfqdb8dj.jpg)
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A different direction....
All of the designs have had the magazine in a vertical position. The higher the capacity, the taller, and more cumbersome the system becomes.
How about a long tube that is mounted parallel to the barrel that holds 50 pellets. The tube could be very thin and light and would not get in the way. When cocking the gun, hold it on a 45 degree angle, and gravity will feed the pellet?
The details would need to be worked out, but the concept has advantages.
Steve
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The details would need to be worked out.
Yes. Therein lies the rub. Pesky details.
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Ron,
The long feed tube might never work. It may be impractical, overly complicated, and just a bad idea. Just a thought that popped into my head. Yeah the "details" I said it like it was nothing. Not the way I meant it. Turning a thought into a finished product that works flawlessly, and can be mass produced at a reasonable cost, is not easy. People spend their entire lives working on projects that never succeed.
Steve
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People spend their entire lives working on projects that never succeed.
Yes, or they try to sell to such a small market (serious adult airgunners) that they will never make enough money to make it worth their time.
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looks great let me know when you start to take orders.
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Patent paperwork sent to Alexandria VA today. Waiting for free time and nice weather to do "in the woods" testing. So far, all verification and validation of the removable magazine have been positive. Ive ordered hardware allowing me to construct 100 units for the first run. Focusing on the "six shooter" version first but a 10 pellet version is also in the works.
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Whether it fits any other air guns, I cannot say
Every wish for success with the patent. As the design fits the Discovery breech, it will fit any contemporary Crosman model using the steel breech, either factory installed or owner installed. Discovery, Maximus, 13XX models, 22XX models, etc.
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Thanks. The current plan is to offer the magazine and related mounting hardware and the hex, allen key to tighten the hardware and to do so for a sub-$20 price point. I will focus on the "six shooter" but higher capacity magazines are already designed. The negatives of higher capacity is that they protrude further from the side of the weapon. The magazine would be mounted into the mounted receiver and then the pellets loaded in the magazine. When empty, the magazine is easily detachable so the weapon can be laid on its side for pumping without having to lay it on the bolt side of the gun. Its mean to work with even the lowest of scope rings. It however NOT work with open sights.
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Make sure you ship to Canada because I'll take one.
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you will probably sell a few hundred on ebay mno problem.. greater exposure
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Thanks. The current plan is to offer the magazine and related mounting hardware and the hex, allen key to tighten the hardware and to do so for a sub-$20 price point. I will focus on the "six shooter" but higher capacity magazines are already designed. The negatives of higher capacity is that they protrude further from the side of the weapon. The magazine would be mounted into the mounted receiver and then the pellets loaded in the magazine. When empty, the magazine is easily detachable so the weapon can be laid on its side for pumping without having to lay it on the bolt side of the gun. Its mean to work with even the lowest of scope rings. It however NOT work with open sights.
Sounds great! A 6 shot clip for the woods and then a 10 shot clip for the bench. Any guess on what kind of time frame you think the process before availability might be? Just curious. Best of luck!
Ed
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The current plan is to offer the magazine and related mounting hardware and the hex, allen key to tighten the hardware and to do so for a sub-$20 price point.....I will focus on the "six shooter" Its mean to work with even the lowest of scope rings....
Excellent on all counts - most especially lowest scope mounts! :)
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Thanks. The current plan is to offer the magazine and related mounting hardware and the hex, allen key to tighten the hardware and to do so for a sub-$20 price point. I will focus on the "six shooter" but higher capacity magazines are already designed. The negatives of higher capacity is that they protrude further from the side of the weapon. The magazine would be mounted into the mounted receiver and then the pellets loaded in the magazine. When empty, the magazine is easily detachable so the weapon can be laid on its side for pumping without having to lay it on the bolt side of the gun. Its mean to work with even the lowest of scope rings. It however NOT work with open sights.
Sounds great! A 6 shot clip for the woods and then a 10 shot clip for the bench. Any guess on what kind of time frame you think the process before availability might be? Just curious. Best of luck!
Ed
Time frame is the limiter right now. This is the WI sports show season so every weekend is spent in my vendor booth at shows around the state and week nights are spent making product to keep up with demand for in-person and online sales of my bow holders and broadhead sharpeners. (aside from working a full time job). Im currently using the latest version of the 6 shooter magazine and putting it through its paces as time allows.
I will most likely get back my paperwork from the US patent office in 8 weeks (all my other provisional patents took that long) which mean I can include the verbiage "Patent Pending" on the product and packaging and other documentation.
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you will probably sell a few hundred on ebay mno problem.. greater exposure
Ebay would be a likely outlet but I would probably add this as a product on my Innovative outdoorsman Web store and sell direct right along side my bowhunting tools.
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makes sense,
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Can't wait to see the completed version Ron.
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I would be in for 3 or 5 myself.
Mike
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makes sense, I think the MSRP needs to be around 35 to be worthwhile , not sure what a commercial shop( emachine) would charge to make 100
These will be made of plastic. Its a simple gravity feed pellet chute/hopper. Metal would be overkill. I could certainly charge $35 but that would be excessive. Its a very small and compact design and as such used very little material. To be quite honest it looks like a happy meal plastic toy that functions very well at delivering pellets to the breach of my Discovery.
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the lower price the better lol.
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The more fairly priced, the better. "cheap" has a negative connotation.
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makes sense, I think the MSRP needs to be around 35 to be worthwhile , not sure what a commercial shop( emachine) would charge to make 100
These will be made of plastic. Its a simple gravity feed pellet chute/hopper. Metal would be overkill. I could certainly charge $35 but that would be excessive. Its a very small and compact design and as such used very little material. To be quite honest it looks like a happy meal plastic toy that functions very well at delivering pellets to the breach of my Discovery.
I like the way YOU think, pay no attention to Rob's earlier post..... ;) ::) You are a busy man Ron!
Ed
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less expensive.....
Value priced......
Ed
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How many varieties of pellets have you tried in it? Do the long polymags or rockets cause issues? Or the cylindrical waisted pellets, like jsbs?
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How many varieties of pellets have you tried in it? Do the long polymags or rockets cause issues? Or the cylindrical waisted pellets, like jsbs?
Its been evaluated with only diablo shaped pellets (regardless of head type, domed, wadcutters, round, hollow point, etc) While Other pellet shapes exist, Ive not taken the time to address the universe of pellet shapes and focused on the the more widely used diablo.
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How many varieties of pellets have you tried in it? Do the long polymags or rockets cause issues? Or the cylindrical waisted pellets, like jsbs?
Its been evaluated with only diablo shaped pellets (regardless of head type, domed, wadcutters, round, hollow point, etc) While Other pellet shapes exist, Ive not taken the time to address the universe of pellet shapes and focused on the the more widely used diablo.
Pretty much all I shoot. I've never had much luck with any other shape other than the predators in my MRod.
Ed
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I designed the CAD model for the detachable magazine so that the last step in the tree is the pellet chute. This way, if there is justification for another shape or size, I can revise to include differing pellet shapes.
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I would like to see it be able to feed the JSB 10.34s and similar dumbbell shaped pellets also or give a choice in diabolo or dumbbell shaped when purchasing.
Mike
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So you load the pellets in the hopper so they feed into the gun with the skirt facing backwards? My only experience with a hopper was paintballing and they were round balls. The hopper didn't have to feed them a specific way into the breech of the fully auto paintball gun I used to use....
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So you load the pellets in the hopper so they feed into the gun with the skirt facing backwards? My only experience with a hopper was paintballing and they were round balls. The hopper didn't have to feed them a specific way into the breech of the fully auto paintball gun I used to use....
Correct. You load them in pointing forward just like you would want to place them in the breech. Work the bolt back and a pellet drops. close the bolt and fire and repeat.
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So, in theory, you could do the same type thing for, say, a QB78? And someone could pay you for this (hint hint....) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes but without the gun in my hands It would not be possible to make accurate measurement, generate the prototype and validate the function.
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You are gonna sell lots of these. For the Disco, the Maximus and any other gun that the HD can be fitted to. Kinda like the TKO. How many TKO brakes have been sold?
Glad you're not greedy, too much of that in the world. A good product at a fair price.
Steve
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You are gonna sell lots of these.
It all depends on the price. Also, we lose sight of the fact that people like us are not a large part of the market.
Also, another thing I learned from marketing computer software is that you can have a great product that nobody knows about, and getting them to know about it is prohibitively expensive.
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Yep, there aren't teally that many folks who make their entite living on their airgun enterprise. And many of the ones that do started out part time, or I suspect have retired and do this for fun. Rocker1 fits the latter category.
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This would only be a hobbyist/sideline enterprise. I have a full time job designing diagnostic medical equipment as well as my own company (Innovative Outdoorsman) selling bowhunting tools of my design. This pellet magazine would be for fun (hence the reason for pricing it very low) Good product market themselves via word of mouth. If this is not a good product and people find little value in it, Ive risked nothing.
Remember, the joy is in the doing.
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Thanks. The current plan is to offer the magazine and related mounting hardware and the hex, allen key to tighten the hardware and to do so for a sub-$20 price point. I will focus on the "six shooter" but higher capacity magazines are already designed. The negatives of higher capacity is that they protrude further from the side of the weapon. The magazine would be mounted into the mounted receiver and then the pellets loaded in the magazine. When empty, the magazine is easily detachable so the weapon can be laid on its side for pumping without having to lay it on the bolt side of the gun. Its mean to work with even the lowest of scope rings. It however NOT work with open sights.
Wow, this is exciting.
Can hardly wait to see it.
Will you offer the option to purchase extra magazines so we can change them when hunting easily from one mag to another one?
That way we can have a spare handy, already loaded to allow quick follow up shots when needed without having to take time
and stop to reload the empty mag.
This is sounding better all the time :)
Best part is, I've got 4 crosman airguns with steel breeches that these will fit :):):)
Thanks
Ray
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For 20 bucks, I'm in.
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heck id pay $20 to print a one time file of it lol
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Looks like it would fit my 392, I would be in for at least two of them.... and I have two QB's if they would fit those... and as mentioned above ,,, spares....
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Yes, the QB78 and Benjamin 392 are the two additional guns it would be worthwhile to test it on and possibly adapt it for if necessary. These two guns are very common and very inexpensive, so obtaining them (even borrowing them) should not be difficult. This will more than double your market over the Disco and Maximus.
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Wow, this is exciting.
Can hardly wait to see it.
Will you offer the option to purchase extra magazines so we can change them when hunting easily from one mag to another one?
That way we can have a spare handy, already loaded to allow quick follow up shots when needed without having to take time
and stop to reload the empty mag.
This is sounding better all the time :)
Best part is, I've got 4 crosman airguns with steel breeches that these will fit :):):)
Thanks
Ray
I should clear this up ASAP. The magazine in its current configuration CANNOT be pre-loaded with pellets. It must be inserted into the receiver that will be mounted above the breech and then pellets can be loaded. Having additional magazines will be of no advantage since the magazine is gravity feed, by design the pellets fall through. The design allows the user to insert the magazine, load it with pellets, close the sliding door and fire until the magazine is empty then slide the door open and insert more pellets.
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While it's too bad the mags can't be preloaded this will still be a very worthwhile product to have. I'm hoping they'll be available in both 6 shot and 10 shot configurations. ;)
Ed
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It should be a simple matter of putting a wide rubber band (like cut from a small inner tube) to keep pre-loaded pellets from falling out the bottom while in your pocket.
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It should be a simple matter of putting a wide rubber band (like cut from a small inner tube) to keep pre-loaded pellets from falling out the bottom while in your pocket.
I don't think the magazines just snap in to replace easily. I think they are mounted (somehow) and not simple to swap so it's probably easier to just reload as it's attached. Ron will correct me if I'm wrong though.
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The magazine does in fact drop easily into the receiver that's mounted to the gun. There is a detent in the magazine and designed in the receiver is a spring loaded feature that nicely captures the magazine to keep it from falling out during the rigors of hunting.
Certainly a user could use a rubber band or a small piece of tape to keep pellets in the detachable magazine (s) upon removing the tape or band the user would not wish to tip the magazine lest he spill the contents of the mag. This means he would have to tip the gun on its side and bring the gun to the magazine. Not a big deal to do it that way if you really want additional full magazines.
After shooting a lot of pellets out of this magazine I find it very easy to drop 6 or 10 pellets down the chute after the mag is snapped into the receiver.
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The magazine does in fact drop easily into the receiver that's mounted to the gun. There is a detent in the magazine and designed in the receiver is a spring loaded feature that nicely captures the magazine to keep it from falling out during the rigors of hunting.
Certainly a user could use a rubber band or a small piece of tape to keep pellets in the detachable magazine (s) upon removing the tape or band the user would not wish to tip the magazine lest he spill the contents of the mag. This means he would have to tip the gun on its side and bring the gun to the magazine. Not a big deal to do it that way if you really want additional full magazines.
After shooting a lot of pellets out of this magazine I find it very easy to drop 6 or 10 pellets down the chute after the mag is snapped into the receiver.
Still sounds like an invention that will make an already wonderful airgun even better.
I want one!
Thanks
Ray
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The magazine does in fact drop easily into the receiver that's mounted to the gun. There is a detent in the magazine and designed in the receiver is a spring loaded feature that nicely captures the magazine to keep it from falling out during the rigors of hunting.
Certainly a user could use a rubber band or a small piece of tape to keep pellets in the detachable magazine (s) upon removing the tape or band the user would not wish to tip the magazine lest he spill the contents of the mag. This means he would have to tip the gun on its side and bring the gun to the magazine. Not a big deal to do it that way if you really want additional full magazines.
After shooting a lot of pellets out of this magazine I find it very easy to drop 6 or 10 pellets down the chute after the mag is snapped into the receiver.
That's great to hear. I assumed it would be held with a set screw.
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(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder388/65903388.jpg)
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(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder388/65903388.jpg)
I want 3 mags
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Progress has been made with the Disco Clip/magazine. The design is sound and I have received the paperwork back from the US patent and trademark office.
The problem is available time. I work a full time job and my own side company is experiencing great growth with the products we are making. Filling the demand for broadhead sharpening guides, Bow holders, Arrow rests and broadhead targets means that when I get home from my real job, I work on my own companies products and order fulfilment until my wife makes me go to bed. The weekends are for sports shows where I market and sell my products.
I hope to find time to return to the pellet magazine soon.
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When you finally get them going and ready to sell I am in for three of them at a minimum.
Mike
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Thanks for the update Ron. You are WAY too busy! ;) Whenever you're able to start production you'll have lots of buyers here.
Ed
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Any update on this? I'd still love one in .22.
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I am a little worried - Ron has not been on the Forum in over a month now. I think he may be working way too hard.
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I agree Mike! Really hope this product eventually goes into production. ;)
Ed
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Hiya, Ron!
Have you made any progress on marketing your Pellet Hopper?
Dave
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Dave, permit me to provide you with an answer:
Ron has not been on the Forum since late March. But he did take time to answer an e-mail I sent him in late May. Below is his answer.
Other inventions are getting in the way. Im designing a new drop away arrow rest, Making archery targets, making brush arrows rests as well as broadhead sharpeners and bow holders. I'm lacking available time to return to the clip/magazine project. Ive received the provisional patent from the USPTO but available hours in the day are by current bottle neck.
I would really like to have a couple of the clip/magazines myself. But it is what it is.
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Thanks, Mike. I'm slowly getting better at loading my Maximus but a six or ten shot hopper sure would speed things up if a quick follow-up shot was needed.
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I would love to have the multi-shot capabilities for squirrel hunting. The multi-shot rifles on the market now [Marauder would be my first choice] are usually heavier than my Maximus or even the Discovery with the wood stock. And those I have seen are more expensive too. And the final thing is that most of those multi-shot rifles are 3,000 PSI rifles. Hand pumping would not be fun!
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I was just thinking about this yesterday when I had my Disco out. Something tells me we may never see this in production. :( Wish Ron would sell his rights to the hopper to someone that would produce it. I agree about the Mrod and also my Hatsan PCPs. Love the guns but they're just too heavy and long to haul around in the woods. My Kral PB is my current choice for that but unfortunately I've lost faith in it holding up over time. It's cocking lever has already snapped and after several reports now I'm waiting for the valve to take a dump.
Ed
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I've seen the YouTube videos of this design and wish I could get one for my disco.
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Would be great! From the looks of it, the guy didn't have time to ever produce them but wasn't willing to let go of the potential business opportunity. Sounds like an opportunity to hire an employee to me! Or sell the rights to someone. Now that the Varmint/Storm Rider and other guns like the Urban are out, the potential sales will be starting to level off. I would still buy 3 or 4 of these myself though if the price wasn't too high!
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The price is the thing that will determine success. I don't remember seeing Ron ever mention a $$$$. It sounded like he had many irons in the fire and the hopper/magazine/clip production never got going. :( :( :( I would have been in for at least four.
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he was aiming at 20 bux.
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Right! That would be a good price imo, he'd get tons of orders, I think. I was hoping it'd be available as a Christmas present for my dad, so was excited when I saw this thread revived. Alas, no such luck!
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I was hopeful for these clips too, but the OP has logged in since June. :(
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Yeah, I found his website and emailed him, several times, with no response. Guess he is just too swamped with other things.
Now that he has registered his idea I suppose someone else couldn't even develop something similar without getting into trouble if they wanted to sell it to others. Sort of a rotten deal all around!
As an alternative, there is a fellow in Czech, who makes magazine systems for QB guns that also plans to build one for the disco. Hopefully he finishes soon. His system is a little more complicated though and costs $59 shipped. Works great on my Qb78 and you can buy extra Rotary magazines. I believe he already has available the system if you don't need auto indexing, so that may be cheaper. Lukás Krevňák is his name and amerlock@volny.cz is the email address. Good guy.
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I just saw a gravity fed mag for a QB78.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEQiY8n3OPY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEQiY8n3OPY)
Maybe if you're extra good, Santa Claus will bring you one.
Merry Christmas
Steve
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This video was uploaded in 2011. This one is metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDcfUf5RU2A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDcfUf5RU2A)
Steve
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Steve, that's very impressive.. Why did you not bring them to market if you don't mind me asking .
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Hey Rob,
I didn't make them, just saw the vids on youtube today.
Steve
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Dave, permit me to provide you with an answer:
Ron has not been on the Forum since late March. But he did take time to answer an e-mail I sent him in late May. Below is his answer.
Other inventions are getting in the way. Im designing a new drop away arrow rest, Making archery targets, making brush arrows rests as well as broadhead sharpeners and bow holders. I'm lacking available time to return to the clip/magazine project. Ive received the provisional patent from the USPTO but available hours in the day are by current bottle neck.
I would really like to have a couple of the clip/magazines myself. But it is what it is.
Long time no see. Perhaps starting a new thread on this topic is in order since Ive found time to revive this project.
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Great news! Welcome back!
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Dave, permit me to provide you with an answer:
Ron has not been on the Forum since late March. But he did take time to answer an e-mail I sent him in late May. Below is his answer.
Other inventions are getting in the way. Im designing a new drop away arrow rest, Making archery targets, making brush arrows rests as well as broadhead sharpeners and bow holders. I'm lacking available time to return to the clip/magazine project. Ive received the provisional patent from the USPTO but available hours in the day are by current bottle neck.
I would really like to have a couple of the clip/magazines myself. But it is what it is.
Long time no see. Perhaps starting a new thread on this topic is in order since Ive found time to revive this project.
Good morning, Ron, and welcome back. Thanks for taking the time to say hello.
EDIT: I forgot to add: I have a few $$$ in my PayPal account. ;) ;)
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Awesome news-- looking forward to sending you some $$ in the future!
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Long time no see. Perhaps starting a new thread on this topic is in order since Ive found time to revive this project.
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhens-teeth.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F12%2Fhomer_simpson_woohoo-300x190.jpeg&f=1)
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See this: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=144289.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=144289.0)
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See this: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=144289.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=144289.0)
+1! This is the new thread re. these!
Ed