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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: manowar669 on May 01, 2011, 04:39:34 PM

Title: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: manowar669 on May 01, 2011, 04:39:34 PM
Gas piston guns are said to be the future of piston airguns.  Is it really that big of a difference from a spring gun?  I've never fired a gas-piston gun.  Is it that much quieter?  Less torque.  Is torque a huge problem?  How about reliability/durability?  I'm on the fence between a gas piston, and a springer as my first adult airgun (I'm 41, I guess I'm an adult).
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: amb5500c on May 01, 2011, 05:29:48 PM
Another advantage you forgot to mention is the fact that you can leave a gas piston gun cocked with no illeffects, unlike a spring.
Richard
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: manowar669 on May 01, 2011, 06:28:14 PM
Yeah, that too.  Great for a hunting rifle.  Is that a Titan in your avatar?  The Titan is one of the rifles I'm considering for my purchase.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Jay on May 01, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
Really to me the gas piston seems to have a more pronounced sharp thump/jump to them than a springer but its such a short cycle that really its no big deal(except to the scope maybe), I see alot of companys making gassers but springers are never going to go away thats for sure. Being kinda new alot still needs to just have a wait an see factor in durability an such, but I have something like 3,000 or so on mine an its doing great, an like Richard said they can be cocked an ready for a shot without worry of the gas taking a set(maybe more pressure on the seals is all). For a first AG about all I can think of is a spring is cheaper to replace at this time if/when the power plant does go down.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: 454 Big Block Chevy on May 01, 2011, 06:30:53 PM
i refuse to believe a gas strut/piston will EVER replace a steel coil mainspring... but they are a nice alternative!
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Muppit on May 01, 2011, 06:36:02 PM
i gave a g1 extreme which is a springer and the titan which is a gas ram, they are essentially the sam air gun just differant power source. the titan shoots so much better. quiet from a shooter stand point gun makes little noise you hear the pellet hit the target and that makes more noise to me. i liked the gas ram so much i converted the g1 to a gas ram......dave
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: OldiesButGoodies on May 01, 2011, 06:39:22 PM
Yeah, that too.  Great for a hunting rifle.  Is that a Titan in your avatar?  The Titan is one of the rifles I'm considering for my purchase.

I would definitely recommend it, and either tune it yourself or send it to a pro tuner. I made my first airgun purchase about a month ago and started with a springer. It had a lot more recoil, was harder to cock, and sounded a lot louder than the Titan.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Shawnzx on May 01, 2011, 06:43:08 PM
The Gas pistons are quieter, smoother, and less hold sensitive than a spring.


Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: amb5500c on May 01, 2011, 06:54:09 PM
No, mine is not a Titan it is a Benjamin Trail XL1100. It does not have tack driving accuracy but has excellant hunting accuracy. I think I own the most powerful and fastest one ever created. I could be wrong and if so, then I stand corrected. But mine shoots CPHPs at an avg. of 930 fps and delivers approximately 27 fpe.
Richard
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on May 01, 2011, 08:19:25 PM
I will eventually turn all my springers into Gas-Ram for sure, and will never consider getting a springer again :)
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Fisherdude on May 02, 2011, 12:57:01 AM
For my money, a tuned spring powered rifle shoots just as good as a gas piston rifle (at least they shoot as good as i can).  Maybe the absence of torque and spring vibration helps a little, but I don't see that much difference.  For me, being able to leave it cocked for hours while hunting is the biggest advantage that gas pistons have over steel springs. Also, the gas pistions are cleaner to work on.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: MichaelM on May 02, 2011, 01:53:20 AM
For my money, a tuned spring powered rifle shoots just as good as a gas piston rifle (at least they shoot as good as i can).  Maybe the absence of torque and spring vibration helps a little, but I don't see that much difference.  For me, being able to leave it cocked for hours while hunting is the biggest advantage that gas pistons have over steel springs. Also, the gas pistions are cleaner to work on.

this is more or less what I believe as well....

while stock to stock a gas piston is smoother and quiter (to the shooter because of no spring twang downrange they are more or less the same) tuned side by side there is very little difference between them.... the gas piston has the bennifit of being able to stay cocked more or less indefinatly, but even then the whole leaving it cocked  this is blown a bit outta proportion... google it and the experiments show that it took weeks of the spring staying cocked to show any apreciable difference in speeds.... so I wouldnt think a few hours here and there would make a real world difference at all but thats just my opinion....

coil springs on the other hand can be tuned and gas rams cannot (unless you shell out the big bucks for a rebuildable and adjustable gas ram.... ) so coil springs give you the bennifit of really tuning the shot cycle and speeds by adding or removing shims, while gas rams well you get what you get... and I have personaly seen differences as high as 50-70 fps between two rams of the same part #....

so pretty much I feel right outta the box rams have the advantage... no twang or torque helps make the gun feel better.... but if your going to have the gun pro tuned the margin is practicaly eliminated and springs may still offer more bennifits with its flexibility...... that is until adjustable/rebuildable ram technology is able to come into the market at a pricepoint comparable to the more or less disposable rams thats in the low end market now....

one last thing... as a tuner gas rams are a dream to work on...after deburring, polishing,trigger work, and all the other assorted odds and ends there is no real adjusting or spring guides... a bushing to keep the ram head centered in the piston and a sleave for the ram body to keep the piston from rubbing and your good to go... no spacing or fitting spring guides to springs or grinding and polishing spring ends and fitting thrust washers etc etc......
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: JonnyReb on May 02, 2011, 02:18:10 AM
  While i agree that rams are better in many respects, i love the "feel" of a well tuned spring gun as it's much softer shooting than the sharp "thump" that Jay described.  I might prefer a gas ram for a hunting gun but would choose a springer for target or plinking. I like both of them each for their own characteristics. J
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: gene_sc on May 02, 2011, 09:04:41 AM
Yes the newer production gas rams from Crosman are much smoother to shoot. They do not torque when shooting them. I tend to agree with Jeff about a well tuned springer though. I have many springer's that are very smooth shooters and I would say as smooth a shooting and firring cycle as a gas ram out of the box. But springer's need to be tuned in order to achieve this.

Up to a point gas rams are no more powerful than a good spring. Only exception would be the new Crosman Magnums. They can exceed the most powerful magnum springer's out there such as the Patriot. Gamo Extreme, etc. Most of the 1000 fps smaller guns in spring guns may be a bit stouter in some models.

All in all the new gas rams are great for those who have problems shooting  springer. Less sensitivity for the most part.

I do not think gas rams will ever take over a good quality spring guns entirely.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: shadow on May 02, 2011, 10:11:13 AM
The ole gas ram vs. spring the brothers above pretty much said it all. I tune them both but I'm old school and really love my springers. I'm a die hard airgun hunter and there's just something about successfully taking game with a spring powered shooter. Ed
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Nathan on May 02, 2011, 10:30:40 AM
Gas rams have a higher cocking effort for a comparable amount of power developed. If you have a unrepairable ram and it looses compression, you're up the creek till you can get a replacement. If you damage/break a spring, you can (usually) source one  easily and replace it yourself. Each system has advantages and disadvantages, but I don't see either one totally replacing the other.

Nathan
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: airiscool on May 02, 2011, 01:03:07 PM
One more thing to level the spring vs gas ram playing field.

I converted a springer to gas ram and bought another gas ram gun both for hunting. Didn't want to have to worry about coil spring guns being cocked for long preiods of time and possable changes of point of impact (POI) while hunting.

Instead, as others have also found out, when hunting during colder weather than when the gun was sighted in, the cold drops the gas ram pressure and POI changes anyway !

Gotta get some electric socks to keep my gas ram guns warm !  ;)

Paul.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Conelty on May 02, 2011, 03:38:26 PM
I loved my gas rams a lot more than any spring guns I had owned.  All I can say is that they are just smoother in every way.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: R.J.9 on May 02, 2011, 08:05:48 PM
I have heard great things about nitro pistons but I am going to get a pcp.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: michael word on May 03, 2011, 02:28:44 AM
Arn't the gas rams filled with nitrogen which is not suppose to change pressure due to changing temperature?
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Makincheez on May 03, 2011, 02:49:21 AM
Michael, I believe that is correct. My thinking is that in cold weather the piston seal contracts more than the chamber, and any lube on it gets more viscous , so you lose some velocity. I couldn't tell you at what temperatures this would be a factor. (please, tell us more Mr Science) ok, I'll shut up now...... ;)
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Jay on May 03, 2011, 02:54:38 AM
From what we have discussed on here Michael they seem to loose just a bit in cold weather(20 or so fps), we have never really came up with if its the nitrogen in the piston or just the colds effect on steel,lubes an other factors in the guns same as on a springer really. Guess we need someone to take a piston an check compression weight in warm an cold so we can have a positive answer to end the debate. Anybody got a spare around an the time?
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: Wampus on May 03, 2011, 10:26:25 AM
All gasses change pressure with temp change if volume is held constant.  Nitrogen is no different from oxygen in that regard.  Air is about 78% nitrogen anyway.  The reason pure nitrogen is used in the pistons is bcause it dosen't oxidize the materials and it's moisture-free.  Water changing from liquid to vapor and back again has a big effect on pressure so a very dry gas is critical.  Nitrogen is just readily available, cheap, and inert, but it absolutely will lose pressure as the temp drops and increase pressure as the temp rises.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: airiscool on May 03, 2011, 01:40:38 PM
Arn't the gas rams filled with nitrogen which is not suppose to change pressure due to changing temperature?

Despite what the gun manufacturer's advertisements say, nitrogen is affected by temperature changes.

When this topic last came up a couple months back, I wondered if nitrogen was an exception. Knowing they fill nitrogen tanks for welding uses, and they store their tanks in unheated sheds, I called my welding gas supplier to double check. He said what Wampus just said, all gases shrink/expand with temperature changes. 

There's nothing unique about nitrogen when temperatures change, it changes pressure just like other gasses.

And, since they both use them, any temperature change that affects seals and lubes will do so with coil spring or gas ram. So that's pretty much a wash. The biggest change in pellet speeds is from temperature affecting gas pressure.
 
Paul.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: michael word on May 04, 2011, 02:04:33 AM
Thank you everyone for clearing the up for me.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: oldpink on May 04, 2011, 02:56:23 AM
As was pointed out, all gases are affected to some extent by temperature changes, some more than others, and certainly nitrogen is less affected than compressed air.
Also, while gas rams are affected by temperature change, they seem much less so than spring guns, and it takes a much greater temperature drop to see that change.
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: rbshoots on May 04, 2011, 05:46:17 AM
not all.....the theoben rams are air filled and are made so the user, with the pump sold for the ram, can adjust the pressure in the ram to suit the users need.....they are however the upper end of the price spectrum
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: uncle paulie on May 04, 2011, 07:53:25 AM
Maybe its just the guns themselves that underperform in the cold. At any rate, under 30deg. I make sure to keep mine warm......in the basement! ;)

pv
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: zzyzx on May 04, 2011, 10:32:38 AM
At 15-40 below zero you are so chilly you slow down a bit and really don't notice the rifle doing so.  ;-)
Title: Re: Spring vs. Gas Piston. Is it really a big deal?
Post by: lloyd-ss on May 04, 2011, 01:15:17 PM
The nitrogen springs are pretty cool and have many pros, and a couple of cons.  But steel  springs will be around for a long time!

These nitrogen springs are basically VERY specialized nitrogen die springs that have been used in industrial stamping dies for many years.  The environment is brutally harsh and the springs are often cycled faster than once a second and last through 100s of thousands of cycles.  Here's a link for some nitrogen die springs. They come in different lengths and diameters and forces:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/SearchServlet/Motion-Control-Fluid-Power/Shock-Absorbers-Springs/Springs/Nitrogen-Gas-Springs-Accessories/Nitrogen-Gas-Spring-Cylinders/_/N-77g61Z1yzlvnf?refinement=4292439694&searchandizedOk=Y&currentMSCtt=nitrogen+die+spring&currentRawInput=nitrogen+die+spring%A2nitrogen+die+spring&currentMSCtk=All_MSC&currentMSCtx=mode+matchallpartial (http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/SearchServlet/Motion-Control-Fluid-Power/Shock-Absorbers-Springs/Springs/Nitrogen-Gas-Springs-Accessories/Nitrogen-Gas-Spring-Cylinders/_/N-77g61Z1yzlvnf?refinement=4292439694&searchandizedOk=Y&currentMSCtt=nitrogen+die+spring&currentRawInput=nitrogen+die+spring%A2nitrogen+die+spring&currentMSCtk=All_MSC&currentMSCtx=mode+matchallpartial)

Regarding the temperature affecting the gas pressure, that is true.  For an ideal gas, which nitrogen is (and air is not), the change in pressure is proportional to the change in temperature PER DEGREES KELVIN, in other words, related to ABSOLUTE ZERO, which is minus 460 degrees F.  If a gas spring drops from 90F to 20F its internal pressure could drop up to 13% but some are designed with temperature compensation. (Speaking about nitrogen die springs).  Cold temp also affects lubes and seals and people.

BUT in a springer, that 13% internal pressure drop will result in a LOT LESS THAN 13% velocity drop.  Increase in pellet velocity is not usually directly proportional to increase in spring pressure, whether its a nitrogen spring or a metal spring.

Just my 2 cents.
Lloyd