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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Big Bore AirGun Gate => Topic started by: DFWdude on June 26, 2012, 11:00:56 AM

Title: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: DFWdude on June 26, 2012, 11:00:56 AM
The Brits on the UK DOC forums think this rifle will be a hit in the US.  I'm not so sure, but I'm not a big bore guy.  So I thought I'd ask the experts here.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 26, 2012, 11:17:14 AM
im not an expert, and know nothing of the gun, but if its flat shooting for a bigbore and accurate , it should do ok,  problem is there are plenty of 308s around , and ammo for this thing might not be readily available , looks like you would have to go to a custom mold, look how long the 20 cal n smallbore took to take off here , part of problem was ammo availabilityat the time
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: grumpy on June 26, 2012, 01:47:47 PM
Id buy one. JSB has ammo for it.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 26, 2012, 02:09:41 PM
if jsb ammo is available , id consider , what advantages would it have over a 308?
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on June 26, 2012, 03:09:17 PM
I just don't understand the choice of caliber, I'm sure it will be a great gun but I would never buy a gun that has only one pellet for sale that fits, on the market, espetially big bore, ...I want some bullets !!!!!!, and in different shape and weight too :) :)
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 26, 2012, 04:11:34 PM
the way i would get around that is cast, i dont buy bullets anymore, once i find a mold that will cast good bullets that shoot well im good, but it would be nice to have other options, nd different bullets to get idea what mold design to have made
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: QVTom on June 26, 2012, 06:37:16 PM
The 303 is the holy grail of British calibers.  Lots of history for them, I'm sure that's why it was picked and us yanks were never considered.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Norm_m on June 26, 2012, 06:45:51 PM
Wow 303! That brings back memories as a 303 Sporterized British Enfield was my first rifle that my Dad purchased for me to hunt with and back then there was no issue with getting ammo. That was over 45 years ago and have had a lot of guns since.

Norm
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 26, 2012, 08:35:18 PM
yes those were powder burners , had an enfield too , getting non jacketed cast heads and several varieties is the job, most likely would have to cast to find out what the airgun likes , thye will shoot nothing like the enfields so you really cant compare to a pb
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on June 26, 2012, 08:38:43 PM
What do you guys think the final retail price will be ?

do you think it will stay under 2500 Bucks ?
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: grumpy on June 26, 2012, 09:26:56 PM
A couple of web sites are listing it at 2495.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 26, 2012, 10:39:31 PM
lol discount emperor will have them cheaper lol   , if you were going to get it in 30 cal manny which 30 cal would you get   a corsair a daq? which would appeal to a hunter the best?
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on June 27, 2012, 01:56:29 AM
I like the .357 as all around caliber, but on the Wolverine platform the .308 would be perfect,...still scratching my head why they whent .303 and now I hear they they developed the barrel to work only whit the JSB pellet, so this rifle won't shoot cast bullets even if you find or get a mold done.

a towsands of dollars Big Bore that is restricted to the use of only one pellet in my opinion is stupid.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 27, 2012, 03:14:54 AM
i concur  thats beyond stupid, if i cant cast for it forget about it , way too ,limited, i like the 9mms also lots of different designs pellets bullets wide array of weights and you can shoot 38s out of them also great all around cal , when you start getting esoteric in he nature of ammo you can shoot , you limit your market , , i do want a max tho if they make it in 357 then im going to have to have one
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: DFWdude on June 27, 2012, 10:18:20 AM
The original purpose of my question was to learn what big bore experts would see in the Wolverine.  For instance, the rifle is touted to shoot 110 ft lbs.  I know that most of the Quackenbush custom rifles provide substantially more power, in a smaller, lighter package, at less than half the price of a Wolverine.

I have two Daystates, and really enjoy them.  I am just scratching my head to divine what market the Wolverine is intended for. 
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: grumpy on June 27, 2012, 10:20:57 AM
I think what a lot of people are missing here is the point that Daystate is making is the Wolverine will be the basis of all their future guns. The .303 is just a statement piece for now.

Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: rsterne on June 27, 2012, 12:46:50 PM
If the rifle is indeed setup only for the JSBs, it would be a real shame.... I assume the chamber is too short for cast bullets.... Not only that, it would have been nice if the new JSBs woud have fit in a .308 bore.... but I guess that's not the case....

Bob
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Rescue35 on June 27, 2012, 01:46:13 PM
I would buy a Rogue if I where looking for a production gun in this class.

For $2500 you could buy a couple of custom bigbores.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 27, 2012, 02:11:27 PM
yep 2 rangers , for sure , its good to see that they are tryingnew cals , but they ned o make it flexible , but i suppose they learn from feedback , its pricey if its 2500 bucks and only shoots jsbs id buy a nine mm max for sure then, i understand , you were thinking of the application of the rifle , light varmint? not sure , but the 357 could do anything it ca do better
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on June 27, 2012, 02:28:03 PM
I doubt it wolud be even 110 FPE, that would mean that JSB pellet would have to travel at 995 fps, and that seems a bit hot for that design to be accurate going from feedback on all Jsb pellets that like the 930 range
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: DFWdude on June 27, 2012, 02:35:51 PM
I think what a lot of people are missing here is the point that Daystate is making is the Wolverine will be the basis of all their future guns. The .303 is just a statement piece for now.


Yes, that is the current line about the future of DS products.  In terms of technology, perhaps.  But I seriously doubt DS will make a full range of Wolverines in all the present calibers. 

Tony Belas himself stated that the Wolverine was "scaled up" in every dimension to handle the pressures of the .303. Building up to fit a specific application is fine, but building up to go small (.177 - .20 - .22) makes little sense. This breech is at least 40% larger than necessary for the smaller calibers.   Smaller than needed for .25 too.

(http://x-plane.org/home/MB-BOB/airguns/Wolv-breech.jpg)

IMO, the rifle's SIZE is not intended for the smaller calibers. Yes, it will be sold in Britain in .177 and .22. But in my humble opinion, it will be sold to Brits who (blindly and faithfully) look beyond the fact that it is way overbuilt for these calibers.

I have some big .177 rifles already. FWB 300s and others. I seldom shoot them. To big, too heavy. They are my prized "closet queens."  I got rid of my Marauder because it was to long and heavy for my 6 foot frame.

It would be beautiful, but I doubt DS will make a scaled-down Wolverine of appropriate size for .177 or .22. Too expensive for a small, domestic, sub-12fpe market.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on June 27, 2012, 02:49:54 PM
good thought mr manny , for me it would be useless
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Plekto on June 27, 2012, 03:19:23 PM
While I respect the history behind it, .303 is a sub-standard choice.  If you analyze the data on various calibers, the best caliber for all-around hunting, accuracy, and efficiency is approximately 6.5 -7.0 mm.  Of course, this is for firearms, and assumes proper firearm bullets (vs pellets), but I'd suspect that the same would hold true for airguns as well, since really large bores are very inefficient and slow.  Yes, they are effective, but 3 or 4 shots per fill is a real issue. 

I'd personally just make a gun that could fire 90 or 100gr .270 Winchester bullets.  Sierra, Hornady, and many others make bullets that look like they are machined out of a single piece of metal compared to most pellets.  It's always seemed odd that instead of  just using standard calibers that you could get supplies for at any reloading shop, they end up with oddballs that don't fit any normal specs.  This also makes it more difficult to get a good barrel, as a .270 Win barrel is a dime a dozen compared to something odd like .303.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: grumpy on June 27, 2012, 04:43:55 PM
In the near future they will be offering every caliber they sell on the Wolverine platform.
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Dick Tracey on July 16, 2012, 06:59:11 PM
I now this is advertising hype for the most part but is interesting read.

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Daystate/Wolverine.html (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/Daystate/Wolverine.html)

I also question the selection of .303 cal, especially designed for American market. 
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on July 16, 2012, 08:05:28 PM
The Huge dowside of the 707 Ultra was exactly that, it only shot one round, but at least jyou could shoot the very accurate roundball too,..still i was just about to sell mine because I couldn't get all I wanted out of the Gun,....than I found the 100gr Wadcutter and everything changed now i absolutely love them guns,  any gun that only works with one pellet is severly handicapped in my view
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Guam Airgun Shooter on July 20, 2012, 10:13:04 AM
I want one... it is possibly the best rifle the UK has to offer... I would like to see it compared to one of the new Evanix in 9mm... power and accuracy wise... I still think the Wolverine would win that contest...
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Guam Airgun Shooter on July 20, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Just a thought... is there an LDC for it?
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on July 20, 2012, 01:16:54 PM
I want one... it is possibly the best rifle the UK has to offer... I would like to see it compared to one of the new Evanix in 9mm... power and accuracy wise... I still think the Wolverine would win that contest...

It's a 100 FPE gun, no use try to compare it to any .357 out there, better of compare it to the powerfull .25s

Wanderfully built, but power and chice of caliber kinda make shake my head, just a no mans land :(
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: rsterne on July 21, 2012, 06:55:19 PM
This rifle is pretty much a straight progression of the performance of modern PCPs extended to a larger caliber.... The pellets are "just shy of 50 gr.", which means they will have proportions in between the 15.9 gr. JSB Exact and the 18.1 gr. Heavy.... Scaled down to .22 cal the pellet weight would be "just shy of 17 gr."  to use their terms.... In .25 cal, the pellet would be "just shy of 26 gr.", so very similar in shape (and therefore Ballistics Coefficient) to the 25.4 gr. JSB King.... However, driving that 50 grains at 950 fps, which is pretty much ideal, works out to about 100 FPE, nearly double what the .25 cal Kings would be at that velocity (51 FPE), and nearly three times the energy of an 18.1 gr. JSB Heavy at 950 fps (36 FPE).... and the trajectory should be almost identical....

Our current .22 and .25 cal PCPs are somewhat handicapped by the pellets commonly available.... There just aren't really any good choices with a good BC once you go beyond the weight of the Baracuda/Kodiaks (21 gr. in .22 cal and 31 gr. in .25 cal).... Yes, there are heavier pellets, but not ones with a great BC.... To really improve the long range capability, we need longer, heavier, bullets, properly made and with a good BC.... The new 41.5 gr. .223 cal bullets (virtually identical to a .22LR bullet) used in the "Sinner" benchrest rifles are an example, but they won't fit our .217" air rifle barrels (and the twist rate would be too low anyway).... A typical big bore, like the .308 DAQ Exile, is designed to shoot 113-120 gr. bullets at around 850 fps (185 FPE).... However, the twist rate of the DAQ is likely too fast for the relatively short pellets used in the .303 Daystate, even if they would fit.... Besides, the DAQ would drive a pellet that light supersonic, which is a waste of time with a diablo shape....

IMO, the new Daystate will certainly have its followers.... and it's detractors.... The advantages of good accuracy, and what I would hope would be readily available ammunition (even if there is only one choice) along with power in the 100 FPE club are certainly plusses.... However, the lack of other pellet choices, and (I'm guessing) the inability to shoot "bullets" with double (or more) the weight, SD, and BC at high subsonic velocities, won't put it in the same class as our current Big Bores....

Just how I see it....

Bob
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on July 22, 2012, 09:56:59 AM
i cast for my 25 cals , with great results, can you cast with these? without actully having one o r having shot one , tough to say how id like it, if they accurate   well i always like that , but the lack of choices concerns me in ammo dept also , but like rsterne said there will be some on both sides according to your needs , it does see, ike a production progression tho
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on July 26, 2012, 01:50:50 AM
1st few indipendent reviews are pretty discouraging, with a Fill of 250 BAR only about 10 good shots and that at less than 100 FPE, very inefficient if you ask me, accuracy wasn't stellar either.

Beautiful built gun with incredible features, but getting down to the nitty gritty for just shy of 3 Grand you don't get much of a Big Bore
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: badredbird on July 26, 2012, 12:08:38 PM
well if you dant have accuracy you have nothing, i wouldnt touch it  why when there are ven more owerful options
Title: Re: Opinions on the Daystate Wolverine .303?
Post by: Powder burner on July 26, 2012, 01:43:16 PM
  note: with powder guns 303 is just a name, the bullets they use are actually slightly larger than .308.