NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
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NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
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Topic: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony (Read 7634 times))
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
on:
September 24, 2015, 10:43:56 AM »
So I just got my chrono and have parts for my NP2 otw. I picked up a tub of the purple Permatex Ceramic Extreme lube which my research shows is used in similar applications to moly but is better. So, today I'm going to open the XL, clean, and cross hatch, and lube the compression tube. I am also going to order some new piston seals, buttons, and a custom N-forcer spring.
I have initial chrony numbers and will update here with photos, chrony results, and maybe videos!
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Huntington Beach, CA
DOKF
Backyard
Expert
Posts: 1256
My Ding Dong Squirrel Alarm
Real Name: Kim
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #1 on:
September 24, 2015, 04:56:04 PM »
Good luck, and I will look forward to your results and chrony data.
Logged
Beaverton, OR
The dog gets excited every time I reach for a rifle or rattle a pellet tin. Squirrels get nervous!
Webley Patriot (the "Turk") 0.25, tuned
Benj NP XL 0.25 GRT, tuned
RWS 350 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
RWS 460 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
Benj NP XL 0.22 GRT, tuned
Benj NP2 0.22 CBR from Gene, tuned
Crosman NV 0.22 GRT, tuned
Crosman NV 0.177, tuned
Crosman Optimus 0.177 (On a Walkabout)
Baikal 512 0.177
Crosman 1377
Benj Trail NP 0.177, tuned
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #2 on:
September 24, 2015, 09:24:47 PM »
Ok, I opened up the XL lubed it. It is stock seal. Crossman Premier Ultra Magnum 14.3 gr over the chrony I'm getting 878-890 fps.
If I use a Macari seal (which one do I get?), and hone/cross hatch the compression chamber, could I get a consistent 900-950 fps with 14.3 CPUM? Or am I already as good as it gets?
I have 3 Crosman break barrel guns. I'm going to get a .177 barrel for the Titan GP, a new .22 barrel for the XL. And maybe an aftermarket ram for the XL. If I get another break barrel it will be a,Hatsan 125.
I am going to buy my first PCP within the next week. I am leaning very heavily towards the WAR Flex. I want something I can hunt Squirrel, hogs, and coyote @,100 or less and I think this might be the gun.
«
Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 10:00:51 PM by Gr8Gorilla
»
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Huntington Beach, CA
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #3 on:
September 25, 2015, 09:51:49 AM »
When my parts arrive from Crosman I will see what NP2 parts work in my Trail Titan GP. That way anyone that wants to upgrade their original NP will know what is possible.
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Huntington Beach, CA
OldFlyRod
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 579
shoot straight, live strong
Real Name: Rod
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #4 on:
September 25, 2015, 04:46:02 PM »
Shaun, the N-Forcer gas spring will not fit in the NP2 piston unless you bore it out. I don't know about the XL.
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Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #5 on:
September 25, 2015, 09:52:30 PM »
Actually, I am not trying to put it in the NP2. I am trying to put it in the XL. But I am getting the Moeller Yellow because it is about 12% stronger than the N-Forcer at, I believe, 306 lbs compressed vs 270. Interestingly, the Moeller Red spring starts at around 156 and ends around 270, same as the N-Forcer but with a lighter starting pressure.
I ordered some more parts from Crosman and here are my plans. I will take the Titan GP that is now a Trail NP and I will put the old NP2 Piston assembly into it with a new seal of course. I will also install a .177 barrel that I have already ordered. I also ordered a new NP2 piston. I will compare it to the Piston currently the Franken GP. I will chrony the Titan as is with .22 barrel. Then with .177 barrel. Then, with the NP2 Piston assembly.
I ordered a few extra "tube plugs" for the NP2 at like $12 each so that I can reverse the spring in the Trail XL. I think the 125 mm stroke piston will work in the XL because it basically matches the measurements of the M-90-125 or N-Forcer 125.
Do you think the 100 mm stroke piston would fit the NP2? I haven't disassembled it yet.. I am waiting on all of the parts to arrive first. Then I am going to do everything at once. I am buying a Brake Hone set from the auto parts store so that I can Hone and cross the compression chambers in each gun. I am also going to order some JM Piston seals for each gun but I have to figure out what size I need to order. Does anyone know? I need one for the Trail XL, NP2, and Titan GP.
I also got a new .22 barrel for the Trail XL because I think I ruined it and I am tired of having to shim my scope. I am going to install the new barrel, bend it if needed, and go from there with it. I am going to see if I can get close to 30 FPE and still hit anything. If so great, if not, I will see if I can exchange the Yellow Spring for a matching Red one. It should be more manageable if the Yellow is too harsh. I also have a .25 barrel for the XL so I will probably try that too while I have the big spring in it. All results will be reported.
I will update with chrony results for all as I get them. Any advice, experience, etc is appreciated. Thanks.
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Huntington Beach, CA
DOKF
Backyard
Expert
Posts: 1256
My Ding Dong Squirrel Alarm
Real Name: Kim
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #6 on:
September 25, 2015, 10:11:49 PM »
When I tuned my NP XL and NP2 rifles I found the rams, pistons, and seals to be different. I do not think you will be able to interchange the XL ram / piston / seal with the NP2 equivalents.
Is Crosman now selling the NP2 ram / piston / seal set?
Logged
Beaverton, OR
The dog gets excited every time I reach for a rifle or rattle a pellet tin. Squirrels get nervous!
Webley Patriot (the "Turk") 0.25, tuned
Benj NP XL 0.25 GRT, tuned
RWS 350 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
RWS 460 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
Benj NP XL 0.22 GRT, tuned
Benj NP2 0.22 CBR from Gene, tuned
Crosman NV 0.22 GRT, tuned
Crosman NV 0.177, tuned
Crosman Optimus 0.177 (On a Walkabout)
Baikal 512 0.177
Crosman 1377
Benj Trail NP 0.177, tuned
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #7 on:
September 25, 2015, 11:41:57 PM »
While preparing my NP2 for repair tonight, I noticed something very interesting. I was assuming that the NP2 was the same size piston and compression tube as the original NP series gun. I was wrong. It is the same as an XL series gun only the tube is shorter.
I am about to take the seal off the extra XL Piston I have and remove the busted seal that is on the NP2 Piston and put it on in it's place and then I am going to disassemble my XL, install the piston from the NP2 but keep the bigger Ram from the XL and shoot that and see how it performs. The Piston from the NP2 is a little bit lighter and shorter than the XL Piston but the same diameter. I will let update this thread with my attempt to use the NP2 Piston in the XL. I already put it in an XL compression tube and put the XL piston into it and it all fits. I have not attempted to connect the cocking linkage.
I also checked and the barrel blocks for the two guns fit each others tubes but the screw hole is off a bit. So that isn't gonna happen. But anyway, it is all making sense now!
The seal will not be a drop on fix for the NP2 from the XL but the XL seal hole is smaller so I can make it work.
If anyone doubts that the 2 tubes and pistons are the same diameter just different lengths I will post some photos tomorrow with calipers.
«
Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 11:44:13 PM by Gr8Gorilla
»
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Huntington Beach, CA
Old Corps
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 2063
yes
Real Name: Ed
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #8 on:
September 26, 2015, 12:02:52 AM »
Wow, you're gonna be busy! Looking forward to your updates/pics.
Ed
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Montrose,MI.
Benjamin Limited Edition .22 (NPS) (CBR)
Benjamin XL1100 .22 (GRT)
Crosman Vantage .22 (Regal Stock, GRT)
Webley Spector .22
Sheridan Blue Streak .20
Hatsan Model 95 Vortex .22
Crosman 1077 .177
Hatsan Edge Vortex .25
Hatsan Edge Vortex .22
Benjamin Summit NP2 .22 (CBR)
Remington Tyrant XGP .22 (GRT)
Benjamin Discovery .22
Benjamin Marauder .25 Realtree Xtra Camo stock
Hatsan AT44S-10 .22
Benjamin PRod .22 RAI adapter & AR stock
Kral Marine Bullpup .25
Hatsan Bullboss .25
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #9 on:
September 26, 2015, 09:38:42 AM »
For the NP2 Crosman is selling just the piston assembly, can't get just the seal, $25. The piston is the same diameter as the XL but it's an inch shorter. I believe the XL seal will fit the NP2 piston with some work.
The hole in the NP2 seal is bigger than the hole in the XL seal. So with a little sanding I should be able to get it on there. However, a new NP2 piston assembly should just drop in to an XL gun but you will need some way to keep the piston centered if you turn it around backwards.
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Huntington Beach, CA
DOKF
Backyard
Expert
Posts: 1256
My Ding Dong Squirrel Alarm
Real Name: Kim
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #10 on:
September 26, 2015, 12:53:17 PM »
I found the ARH "Crosman Seal Pack" had one seal to fit each of the NP XL, NP2, and NV.
Good to know Crosman is now providing the NP2 piston. I'll order a spare ...
Logged
Beaverton, OR
The dog gets excited every time I reach for a rifle or rattle a pellet tin. Squirrels get nervous!
Webley Patriot (the "Turk") 0.25, tuned
Benj NP XL 0.25 GRT, tuned
RWS 350 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
RWS 460 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
Benj NP XL 0.22 GRT, tuned
Benj NP2 0.22 CBR from Gene, tuned
Crosman NV 0.22 GRT, tuned
Crosman NV 0.177, tuned
Crosman Optimus 0.177 (On a Walkabout)
Baikal 512 0.177
Crosman 1377
Benj Trail NP 0.177, tuned
mobilehomer
Trained professional. Do not try this at home without adult supervision and trained medical staff on site.
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 5137
yes
Real Name: Ken
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #11 on:
September 26, 2015, 01:53:53 PM »
Shaun, I have a XL seal from the ARH Crosman seal pack that I don't need. PM your address and I'll put it in the mail for you.
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White House, TN
If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs..... If we had some eggs!!
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=962067
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #12 on:
September 26, 2015, 05:09:13 PM »
I managed to get the seal off of an extra XL piston assembly I had, increase the opening to 17mm to match the one from the NP2 piston assembly, and get it fitted onto the NP2 piston.
I have been out making some extra money to buy my first PCP, the WAR Flex. On the way home I'm picking up a brake hone set. When I get home in about an hour I'll put it to use on the compression chamber of both the XL and NP2.
Then I'll put the NP2 piston assembly into the XL, with the XL spring, and maybe get some Chrony time tomorrow if it doesn't rain all day again.
Looks like none of my parts have arrived from Crosman so it'll be next week before I get the NP2 back together and chrony it.
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Huntington Beach, CA
DOKF
Backyard
Expert
Posts: 1256
My Ding Dong Squirrel Alarm
Real Name: Kim
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #13 on:
September 26, 2015, 08:54:54 PM »
I could not find a brake hone long enough to reach all the way into the cylinder, so had to jury rig something together. I'd love to have a better solution if you develop one.
Logged
Beaverton, OR
The dog gets excited every time I reach for a rifle or rattle a pellet tin. Squirrels get nervous!
Webley Patriot (the "Turk") 0.25, tuned
Benj NP XL 0.25 GRT, tuned
RWS 350 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
RWS 460 0.22 T06, Vortek PG2 kit tuned
Benj NP XL 0.22 GRT, tuned
Benj NP2 0.22 CBR from Gene, tuned
Crosman NV 0.22 GRT, tuned
Crosman NV 0.177, tuned
Crosman Optimus 0.177 (On a Walkabout)
Baikal 512 0.177
Crosman 1377
Benj Trail NP 0.177, tuned
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #14 on:
September 26, 2015, 09:06:49 PM »
I actually have not been able to make something yet but I also haven't tried. I had to buy my wife a Roomba so that I can buy my Flex and I forgot.
I have bad news about the NP2 Piston assembly and the XL. It will need to be lengthened to work in the XL. I can't see how it would really make a difference anyway though. If you button the back of the XL piston it should act just like the NP2 Piston. I currently have both guns apart, about to put them back together and I will quickly measure each spring before I put them back in.
I will get to test the NP2 and probably order a stronger Moeller spring for it that will fit. I will report back shortly with measurements.
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Huntington Beach, CA
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #15 on:
September 27, 2015, 11:11:29 PM »
Ok, got the NP2 all the way back together. I took an NP XL seal I had, sanded the inside so it would fit the larger diameter end cone on the NP2 piston. Now, the XL and NP2 both have the same diameter piston and compression chamber. My callipers say 29mm. However, the XL has a 125mm gas spring stroke where as the NP2 shares the stroke length of the original Trail NP, Titan, Nitro Venom, etc power plant.
So the NP2 has the Diameter of the XL and the stroke length of the smaller gun. I never chronographed the gun new but I did today after getting it back together.
I mounted the Leapers UTG 4-16x44 and quickly got it shooting about an inch low at 10 yds. I just lubed the piston assembly with a ceramic lube that is similar to Moly but considered better and is being used as a bullet lube, not sure at our velocity it matters, as well. It's rated to over 3000 degrees in an oxygen environment.
I shot about 50 shots over the Chrony. I was shooting CPUM and the new Piranha pellets, both 14.3 grain, unsorted, and similar in beach fit, accuracy, and velocity.
The first 10 or so were right around 800 fps. The next 10 or so were 815-820. Then ~835 til about 40 some and the last 10 were from 835-848 fps.
There is minor dieseling apparent from the smoke that trickles after each shot but I am thinking that this power creep is the result of the piston seal wearing in. My guess is that the manufacturing tolerance's of the XL were not as tight and to compensate the seals are a little bigger.
As it stands, my NP2 is shooting 14.3 gr pellets from 830-850 fps. 22-23 FPE.
I'll shoot another 100 thru it tomorrow and then do 50 over the chrony.
«
Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 11:29:36 PM by Gr8Gorilla
»
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Huntington Beach, CA
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #16 on:
September 28, 2015, 02:36:20 PM »
Shot about 100 more pellets and the NP2 .22 is averaging 830 fps with the 14.3 grain Crosman Premier Ultra Magnums. So I'm getting 21-22 fpe consistently and @ 25 yds I can shoot groups that are .23" CTC.
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Huntington Beach, CA
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #17 on:
September 28, 2015, 02:40:26 PM »
Mail man just dropped off my new NP2 spring, trigger pack for the XL, and some replacement muzzle brakes, and breach seals. I'll get the XL back together shortly.
Forgot to mention that while I had the NP2 apart, I chucked up some brass washers and got them sized. Then, I also had to thin them out a bit too. So that's out of the way.
«
Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 03:33:20 PM by Gr8Gorilla
»
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Huntington Beach, CA
Gr8Gorilla
Plinker
Posts: 226
yes
Real Name: Shaun
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #18 on:
September 29, 2015, 08:03:02 PM »
So, I received my new piston assembly today. I already had a new OEM ram for my NP2, they are about $7 from Crosman. I got both installed, lubed the piston with the Purple Permatex Ceramic Extreme Brake Lube. It's 100% synthetic lube and so far, even with a generous application to all parts of the piston, I have not had a single detonation. Minor dieseling but it's consistent. The lube is good to 3000 degrees F. I believe that is why it's not detonating or dieseling bad.
After I got the NP2 back together, it wouldn't cock. So I have go take it out of the stock and figure out why.
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Huntington Beach, CA
mobilehomer
Trained professional. Do not try this at home without adult supervision and trained medical staff on site.
GTA Senior Contributor
Posts: 5137
yes
Real Name: Ken
Re: NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony
«
Reply #19 on:
September 29, 2015, 08:37:05 PM »
Make sure the sear is outside the tube, not inside. Personal experience.
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White House, TN
If we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs..... If we had some eggs!!
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=962067
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NP XL/NP2 Tune and Chrony