Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
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Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
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Topic: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51 (Read 4810 times))
TheBman
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Real Name: Brent
Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
on:
October 11, 2014, 09:13:15 PM »
Ok guys, as I promised, here is some pictures and some narrative about what I did. I can’t and wont tell you this is how to do it, or the best way, or even the right way. It’s just how I did it, right or wrong. I have no experience with PCP’s and how to regulate them, other than what I learned by doing this and what I researched . I don’t think this is a task to be taken on by a novice. Not only is there too many dangers involved, but there are just some things mechanically speaking your just gonna have to figure out on your own. However, if you have some mechanical skills, mechanical knowledge and can use precision measuring instruments, you can do it. Some things you may need to outsource, such as making the hammer or the adjuster unless you have your own lathe or access to one.
My goal was to have a regulated gun at 20FPE or a little under. So, the springs, weights and port sizes of what I used to get there are specific to that goal. If you want a 12FPE gun for example, the principals will be the same, but the springs, weights, ports etc will be different. I think with some effort, you should be able to find the pertinent information you need.
I used a regulator I purchased from a fellow GTA member, Milo74. His product came highly recommended. I did however spend a good amount of time watching videos on youtube by Robert Lane (don’t know if he is a member here). Just search for robertlanedesigns on youtube or go to airgunregulators.com and it should provide you with links. I learned a lot by doing this and highly recommend you do to.
I am hoping that by putting this all together that those that have wondered what is partly involved in installing a regulator into a PCP will have a
basic
understanding of it. I also truly hope that those with more experience will chime in with hints, tips, or directions on how to better do it.
This is the second post by me on this topic, so if you haven’t read
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=75570.0
pleased do so to get the story of how we got here.
Pictures/narratives will be added as fast as I can, as I know that tells the story. I still have several to edit, resize etc.
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #1 on:
October 11, 2014, 09:20:15 PM »
I read your other thread, and I am really looking forward to this one.
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TheBman
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Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #2 on:
October 11, 2014, 09:25:42 PM »
Suggested reading:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=70970.0
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=74900.0
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53141
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=74919.0
"the book"
http://www.lebedev.com/airgun/technical_details_for_adjusting_the_bam_b50_51.pdf
and anything else you can find. There is a lot of good info in these topics.
«
Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 10:08:11 PM by TheBman
»
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TheBman
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Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #3 on:
October 11, 2014, 09:40:01 PM »
Step One, what are your goals with the gun
In other words, the single most important thing I think you need to do is determine your goals for the build. Are you gong to build a 20FPE Field Target Hunter class rifle, or a 12 FPE higher shot count vermin exterminator. It really does dictate a lot of things you will need to research..and solve. One of the considerations I had was "what if I want to turn my power up or down"? Am I just stuck with a 12 FPE gun forever and ever? What are your shot count expectations? I got better than 90 shots at right around 14 FPE, 100 at 12 should be realistic but 75 @ 30 FPE ain't gonna happen
Seriously, it lays out what can or can not be accomplished...now and in the future. So before you dig in and start cutting and drilling, have well defined goals and realistic expectations...not only for the gun, but within your resources available.
Once you've got that sorted out, get some paper and develop your plan.
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TheBman
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #4 on:
October 11, 2014, 09:55:21 PM »
Step 2, develop your plan
This really runs hand in hand with your goals I think. For example mine looked something like this:
A. Just under 20 FPE so it's legal for Hunter Field Target
1. What FPS and pellet weight gives me the flattest trajectory at this FPE? (play with GunChair and look at graphs)
2. what pellet shoots well in this gun (research web)
a. what speed does this pellet work well at (research web) and does that FPE fall within my needs?
1. Figure out what pressure is required to have pellet/weight at that FPS (make note for reg set pressure)
Those are just some of the notes I had down. Ask yourself a lot of questions, it may seem overkill, but it will start the foundation of your plan. When your laying this out, look at your resources, skills, cost expectations etc. If you have to outsource something like say machining the hammer...what are the costs for that...have you got a friend that can make it for you...when can they get to it. It all plays together so sort it out now.
Now for the best part...work your plan.
«
Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 10:05:31 PM by TheBman
»
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TheBman
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #5 on:
October 11, 2014, 10:39:28 PM »
For my 20FPE build, I used the following parts:
Hammer spring and valve spring McMaster Carr spring 194125K125 you need 2 and it comes as a pkg of 5 $13.28
Hammer material (MDS nylon was recommended highly) McMaster Carr 8554k29 1ft $6.33
Regulator from Milo74 $80
1--1/2-20x2 setscrew for adjuster Local hardware store $1
1--6-32x1/4 setscrew for locking striker in place Local hardware store $.25 (you could reuse your metric from existing hammer)
1--10-32x3/8 setscrew for locking hammer spring adjuster
O-rings for the valve, end cap, transfer port, check valve...change them all save your self a headache (sizes in "the book")
Any taps and tap drills you do not have
Your B50/51
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TheBman
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #6 on:
October 12, 2014, 08:43:29 AM »
Step 3, Disassembly, inspection and measurements
Your plans all ready, your goals are established and you've gathered data from your gun via the Chrony. Lets do it.
DEGAS BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING.
. Disassemble your rifle down to the only 2 things left are the cylinder with the valve still installed. I used a storage case like the one in pic #1 to keep track of all the parts. I don't think a play by play on the disassembly is needed as the schematic in the book shows you where everything is and you have the skills needed to get it apart.
At this point, I got my length from the end of the cylinder to the face of the end cap of the valve. I squared a piece of 1/2 pvc pipe, inserted it into the cylinder until it made contact, marked the end of the cylinder on the pipe and removed it. I used some electrical tape and wrapped the pipe at the length marked (as markings sometimes get wiped off!) like in pic #2 and then measured and recorded the info
You need a non-marring tool of your own design to loosen the cap on the valve. The book gives a few examples of sockets being filed or ground. I simply used a piece of 1/2 PVC water pipe, filed the end like the sockets in the book and used it (pic #3). Worked like a champ and it took about 2 minutes to make. Now, unless the threads are galled or whoever assembled it really cranked it down, it should loosen pretty easily. If not, you may have to resort to something a bit more sturdy.
Remove the valve by using your PVC pipe and push it out the end of the cylinder.
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TheBman
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Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #7 on:
October 12, 2014, 08:52:30 AM »
Get yourself a notebook and your measuring tools and measure and record everything. I drew myself a print of each part and recorded all the data about it. This allowed me to refer back to my parts and make decisions on what was going to have to be machined to make things work.
If you haven't ran any of the calculations for the standoff length required, now is a great time to do so.
Inspect each part, remove any burrs, clean, polish what your going to polish etc and basically get everything your not machining ready to go back together.
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TheBman
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #8 on:
October 12, 2014, 09:24:56 AM »
Step 4, machine the valve
Reading through the suggested reading posts, you'll find a good bit of information given by MotorHead (Thank You!!) about some of the things he has done . I simply took that information and ran with most of it.
Pic 4...I opened up the valve inlet to .375, broke the edge with a 45
Pic 5..I opened up the spring seat to facilitate the larger diameter spring
Pic 6...I cut down one of the McMater Carr springs, bent the cut end square, polished the ends a little.
Pic 7 and 8...I machined a new bushing for the valve stem. Larger size required as the new spring is bigger. I lightly radiused the inlet side edge. I also resurfaced the stem seat.
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TheBman
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Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #9 on:
October 12, 2014, 09:40:26 AM »
I did a mild lapping of the valve seats using some JB's bore paste, opened the outlet port to .150, cleaned with alcohol, replaced O-rings and reassembled the valve without the spring. I then tested the seat by applying some very low pressure air to the valve inlet and cycled the stem repetitively ensuring I turned it and checked for leakage. All good here, installed the spring and placed it in a plastic ziplock bag for stowage.
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TheBman
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #10 on:
October 12, 2014, 10:29:22 AM »
Locate and drill weep hole
I used some gray electrical tape and placed it on the cylinder directly under where the barrel sits. I put the barrel on with 2 screws and traced the edge of the barrel onto the tape with a marker. I removed the barrel and then inserted the alignment pin into it's hole with a gentle tap...pic #9
Pic 10...with the cylinder flat, I rotated it toward me and placed the valve onto the pin, and then placed the standoff in place and then the regulator.
Pic 11---You can see my tracing of the barrel on the tape much better here. I elected to use the center point between the orings of the regulator as my reference point for the weep hole in the cylinder. I simply marked it out on the tape. This hides the weep hole out of view. Consideration as to the placement of the weep should be one of your concerns in your plan. If you place the hole closest to the o ring toward the breech, you can turn use a shorter standoff if you reduce power, or vice versa/ I went in the middle as it allows me to go up or down, but to a lesser degree.
Remove your valve, standoff, regulator and alignment pin
Center punch the mark thru the tape and drill the hole. Size...I've read from 1 - 3 mm in size.
Deburr the hole...inside the cylinder is especially important to avoid nicking or cutting the O-rings during installation of the Regulator.
Now you get to deburr
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TheBman
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #11 on:
October 12, 2014, 10:31:48 AM »
Thats probably it for today. If I need to clarify anything, ask. I'll try to answer the best I can. Feedback???
«
Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 10:35:04 AM by TheBman
»
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SpiralGroove
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Real Name: Kirk
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #12 on:
October 12, 2014, 01:31:18 PM »
Nice Bman,
The post will be very helpful to many BAM 50/51 owners; I don't think prospective tuners need tremendous Lathe skills to make things, just an accurate (lathe) set-up and measuring tools. Overall, great combination of PCP theory, machining, mechanical and computer skills shown to present the tune
.
All other owners "On The Fence" should have their BAM PCP
Motorheaded
by Scott!!!
Kirk
«
Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 02:21:34 PM by SpiralGroove
»
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #13 on:
October 12, 2014, 01:52:12 PM »
Mmmmmm. This is not for the average tinker.
Hindsight can be the B-word, but perhaps I should have taken less lab science and more metallurgy back in the day.
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TheBman
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Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #14 on:
October 14, 2014, 06:20:24 AM »
Reading back through this this morning I realized I skipped a step, and that is the standoff. It is nothing more than a bushing. Just be sure to use something of sufficient strength and that it won't corrode. I used 300 series stainless 1/16th wall thickness and it was 1.875 in length.. Your length is determined by the the volume you need. The volume you need is determined by FPE you choose. MOTORHEAD and RSTERNE have previously given recommendations as to volume required per FPE. Machine and deburr.
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #15 on:
October 14, 2014, 11:14:09 AM »
How much clearance is there between the 0.570" OD washer you put on the valve poppet for a spring seat and the inside of the valve?.... It would seem that it might restrict the flow at that point, which could negate the opening of the valve inlet?.... Just a thought as I haven't been inside my B-51 yet, in fact it's never been fired....
Bob
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
TheBman
Springer Fan
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Posts: 508
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Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #16 on:
October 14, 2014, 06:29:52 PM »
Bob,
I measured the ID of the inside of the valve at .788 according to my notes.
Brent
«
Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 07:16:19 PM by TheBman
»
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #17 on:
October 14, 2014, 08:50:26 PM »
Should be lots of clearance.... Not the most streamlined shape with the washer on it but flow volume shouldn't be an issue....
Bob
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Coalmont, BC, Canada
🇺🇦
Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since! 🇺🇦
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), XS-60c HPA in .30 cal (90 FPE), .22 cal QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Benchrest PCP, .172/6mm Regulated PCP and .224/.257 Unregulated, Three regulated BRods in .25 cal (70 FPE), .30 cal (100 FPE) & .35 cal (145 FPE), .257 Condor (180 FPE).
TheBman
Springer Fan
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Posts: 508
yes
Real Name: Brent
Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #18 on:
October 15, 2014, 06:20:15 AM »
Install the valve, standoff, and regulator
You will probably have a good bit of prep work here in deburring the cylinder to prep it for installing the parts. My cylinder needed a fair amount of TLC as most edges were pretty sharp. Cleanliness is important when finished!
All I did was remove the end cap from the valve, applied lube (less is more) the O-ring and reinstalled the cap leaving it just barely loose
. If you are applying pressure to the O-ring, you are expanding it. Simply align it as close as you can and insert it into the cylinder. Get things aligned and insert your alignment pin, screws in the side of the valve, and the screw and nut on the bottom of the valve. I then used my PVC valve tool and tightened the end cap on the valve seating the O-ring.
I inserted the standoff. I made a vertical mark on the face of the Regulator in relation to the weep hole location on the side of the regulator. As suggested form one of the videos, I kept that mark on the face regulator pointing up towards the weep hole in the cylinder and simply pushed the regulator into position against the standoff. A light rocking motion was used to get it past the threads in the end of the cylinder
Installed new O-rings on the cylinder end cap, installed it and then the fill valve.
Leak test is important.
Note: Milo74 said he used wire affixed to the regulator to aid in it's removal for adjustments.
«
Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 06:29:54 AM by TheBman
»
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ped
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 548
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Re: Part 2, Regulating the B50/51
«
Reply #19 on:
October 15, 2014, 04:17:45 PM »
nice write up i fitted a robert lane to my b51 last year as our limits only 12fpe i lightened the hammer considerably and found fitting very easy but i did increase the stand off to twice the one supplied as i'm a firm believer in having enough prechamber
i found the consistency very good but i haven't really done much set up as i'm waiting for a .20 barrel for it
ped
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Part 2, Regulating the B50/51