GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Mike 4888blues on April 21, 2012, 05:13:00 PM
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This is part #1/ Follow post down further till you see part #2
I have to run out, but here's some pics on making the piece for the gas ram that goes inside the piston, and the delrin end piece for the back of the gas spring. The results will be posted when I am done testing, by this evening.
I will say cocking was stiff until about the 10th shot, it started getting smoother and easier as continued shooting, in the beginning there were a couple of times the barrel did not want to engage
Sorry I can not report on the fps until i make a adjustment on the new j m seal when I get back it was pretty darn tight going into the compression area
also the metal gas ram adapter was shaped so it was fairly even on all sides, with the divot in the center, this will keep the ram from moving period, I also beveled the rams arm more so that it seats into the same contour of the divot.
That is how crosman makes there gas ram pistons, except there piece is spot welded into place.
it was around 3/8'' thick cut from 7/8'' steel square stock, then ground and shaped so it would fit into the piston. this way the piston is totally free to twist and no Chance of it getting bound or moving off center, there's no play in the receiver any way, when you done and the gas ram has no pre load on it except a1/32'' but that is not to be counted.
the 90% allowable gas ram stroke is reached when the piston has reached its travel point when the triggers sear engages because that distance was 4 1/2''/ so the gas ram speck for the rifle is on the money!
"Boy it was a close call at first looking into that! lol
Mike
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Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?
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Looks good! Sounds like your getting the gas springs full potentual.
Staying Tuned..
Bob
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Good job Mike, excellent post. just click on the bottom liknk for bigger pics.
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I am anxiously watching ang waiting for some speed numbers, so we can determine FPE . . .
I feel like an "Expectant Father" in the Waiting Room . . . LOL !
Dave
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Looks great Mike.....can't wait for results.
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Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?
you can click the link under the picture to make them a little bigger, maybe try click and save them to your computer so you can zoom in on your computer/ this is only way I know how to upload using this size
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Part #2 of this post. I was getting 900 fps using .22 14.3 grn cphp lead pellets this is the Moller 90-125-A-Red gas ram
the cocking gets easier after the initial install quickly, yet it is strong, but not over bearing, it lets you know you would not want to use the yellow ram in IMO.
This has been a lot of work.. a lot!!
I degreased the wfh, did the cross hatching, lube tuned, installed the new J m seal,made the parts for the rams conversion , along with checking the pistons travel,
which is how far it travels down from when it is not cocked to when it engages with the triggers sear, locking into place, that was 4 1/2'' the rams stroke is 4.92
now take into account you are not supposed to exceed 90% of the rams stroke and you can see with those measurements it is darn close
The j m seal was so tight, by the time it reached the compression chamber, I had to use a wooden dowel to shove it down all the way, at that point I was getting 850 fps.
Not having time for a new seal to wear in as we want to know what the results truly are
hey guess what?? i ruined it yep, 21.00 down the drain (bye now ...lol
I dont mind being truthful, we need to know we are human, staying up till 4 am last night and up early today, coming back home late today, trying to get this done so we can all see what the moller ram will give us, well that's what happens i ruined a new jm seal
I reinstalled the wfh original seal ,it was fine to begin with/ but it pays to install a j m seal that way you are done with seals for a long long time .
Every time the rifle gets taken apart the trigger has to come out whole, so that means installing the small main trigger pin I made, that holds the trigger together yet allowing you to remove the trigger. thank bob cdt for that ideal i learned from his post!.
then when it is put back together.
you have to shoot it like 8 x then re clean the barrel to remove any excess lube or possibly molly out of the barrel, so you get accurate crony readings
Then you shoot 10 x just to be sure the piston is warmed up. then you start the crony.
the ps2 stupid crony i have reads maybe 1 shot out of 6 because the center line of the two lazor read outs, are very narrow, needless to say i will be buying a normal crony from wall mart.
I realize if i am going to be doing some rifles for other members I better get some parts on hand, like safety springs, c clips, trigger retaining pins of different sizes, jm seals
its a lot of work to be honest/ there is no room for anything to be incorrect, everything has to be right, you would be amazed to see the process from beginning to end, one little thing and you are taking it all apart again, including re cleaning the barrel and so on.
Any one doing this look at the pictures.
I would make the adapter that fits into your ram like this, it takes longer but its done right.
this keeps the ram off of the bottom of the piston it keeps the ram centered yet it keeps the ram totally free from binding, and it allows it to pivot freely with out binding or adding any stress , the ram needs to move freely, to be able to twist , pivot freely, so your bottom piece should not fit the rams body tight either it does not have to,a little bigger will allow the ram to position itself the way it naturally would want when its stroke is being engaged. I made the piece from 7/8'' steel square stock, 3/8'' wide was the actual peice.
the rams end piece was made from white delrin, great stuff very hard, very slippery, thank magnum116 for letting me know what to buy, he has taught me several thing since I joined gta and he is a good gta friend
I beveled the rams arm to match the pivot divot it sits in
also i filed all the edges around the pistons I. D, really good and lubed that area as well, making no chance for the rams housing to get scratched or cause wear into the body.
molly anything that will have contact that will twist or move.
I like to know if the wfh has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out the quattro trigger
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Mike, we need more pics Mike of the process with details of each pic. like a video documentation, i know its allot to do but this is almost historic whats going on with this post , wouldnt you say, we have tarheel our engineers we have multiple members with input , I just think to document this is very important. Brent
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keep up the good work. cant wait to here how ti turns out in the end and the numbers
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Remember, the MOELLER "RED" gas ram was determined to be a "safe starting point".
Other gas rams should give progressively higher numbers.
The KALLER "YELLOW" would be the next step up, with the MOELLER "YELLOW" likely being the "MAX", in terms of Cocking Effort and, possibly other areas.
The fact is, we will not know until we get there . . . Safety is "Job #1" and Reliability is "Job #2" !
Dave
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So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons
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So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons
Based on the numbers right now, that seems to be accurate for the time being. However, Mike is still dealing with Piston Seal issues and other factors that will likely come into play, in terms of the "combination" ( Piston Weight, Pre-Load, etc ).
Dave
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Sorry for the seal deal!!! I forgot that the JM deal is slightly O/S. JM claimed and others that's the factory seal is slightly undersized. Been over a year that I was told that when I bought the WFH and got some parts from JM. I tried to make it fit something else and lost that thing to.
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Sorry for the seal deal!!! I forgot that the JM deal is slightly O/S. JM claimed and others that's the factory seal is slightly undersized. Been over a year that I was told that when I bought the WFH and got some parts from JM. I tried to make it fit something else and lost that thing to.
So, is it better to trim the Seal or hone the Piston Bore larger ?
Dave
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Others have trimmed the JM seal and lost power. That's why JM states clearly it is oversize for a reason on his site. Given JM's experience, I'd leave his seals alone and let em break in properly.
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Others have trimmed the JM seal and lost power. That's why JM states clearly it is oversize for a reason on his site. Given JM's experience, I'd leave his seals alone and let em break in properly.
That sounds like a good idea to me . . .
Dave
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My point. Thanks Paul. Proper lube and breaking in. Still like the ideal of at the least a scuffing of the piston chamber for the 2 surfaces to mate. thats just old school. I have had very good results of the factory seals in the my price guns. Not discrediting the after market. After market seal are by far better. Some sizing is needed.
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Sorry for the seal deal!!! I forgot that the JM deal is slightly O/S. JM claimed and others that's the factory seal is slightly undersized. Been over a year that I was told that when I bought the WFH and got some parts from JM. I tried to make it fit something else and lost that thing to.
So, is it better to trim the Seal or hone the Piston Bore larger ?
Dave
The J m seal for the hatsan and wfh and talons ,Some people would leave it the same size knowing it will break in and loosen up down the road getting higher fps then when it was originally installed.
You know j m knows his stuff. I rather adjust the seal if i had to, just by simply sanding it down some, how ever Dave I was just to tired when I did mine and took it too far.lol
no the receiver should be left alone, only a cross hatching from the begging is what should be done.
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So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons
well i bet the moller ram will last a lot longer and perform a lot better then the crosmans nitro piston will
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So, the Moeller Red is basically the same power as the Crosman Nitro Pistons
Based on the numbers right now, that seems to be accurate for the time being. However, Mike is still dealing with Piston Seal issues and other factors that will likely come into play, in terms of the "combination" ( Piston Weight, Pre-Load, etc ).
Dave
with the new installed j m seal the fps was 850 fps in .22 14.3 grn lead pellet, I did not have time to wait for Break in"" period as we are testing to see our results here.
after sanding it down and ruined it being I was tired and up very late
the seal i reinstalled is the original wfh seal it works fine so I would except the 900 fps we our getting with that.
from that point it will be + or - with in the 900 fps depending on how tight a person seal is, and exactly how they did there conversion
I am happy with our results, 900 fps in a .22 14.3 is not bad for a gas ram in a safe level.
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I'm sure they will, but the Crosman Nitros I have in my 3 guns, have being darn good for a long time now :)
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Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?
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Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?
OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first
MOELLER "RED" . . . 900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE
The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE
Dave
Dave
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The "numbers" , as I see them, tell me that the combination is not "optimized" ( Piston Weight, Friction, etc )
At present, if Scotchmo's equation is the "standard", the numbers reflect an "EC" ( efficiency coefficient of .33 - aka 33% ) . . .
From what Scotchmo said, an EC of .35 to .38 should be possible.
Dave
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I'm sure they will, but the Crosman Nitros I have in my 3 guns, have being darn good for a long time now :)
are you using the large one because the smaller ones seem to be wimp in power for a ,22 lead 13.4 grn pellet getting around 700 fps it would be nice to see around 800 fps then i would not complain.
how ever the gta members using 177 pellets must be very happy
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are you using the large one because the smaller ones seem to be wimp in power for a ,22 lead 14.3 grn pellet getting around 700 fps it would be nice to see around 800 fps then i would not complain.
My Nitro Venom .22 is right around 700 fps with 14.3 gr CPHP's.
700 fps X 700 FPS X 14,3 gr / 450240 = 15.56 FPE
Dave
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The "numbers" , as I see them, tell me that the combination is not "optimized" ( Piston Weight, etc )
Dave
Hi dave
your thinking theres more power to be had from the moller red?
criss magnum 116 asked about piston weight being the same when the original top hat was used with the spring, but i could not make a piece to compensate the weight of the top hat.
i had just enough room to make the rams piece it pivots in inside the pistons bottom and the end piece the rams body sits it.
the piece i made inside the bottom of the piston was about 3/8'' deep, with a divot drilled out in the middle the end piece for the rams body to seat in was was maybe 1/2'' wide of delrin that
is all the room I had to deal with
I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps
but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red
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Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?
OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first
MOELLER "RED" . . . 900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE
The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE
Dave
Dave
you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello
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Hi dave
your thinking theres more power to be had from the moller red?
criss magnum 116 asked about piston weight being the same when the original top hat was used with the spring, but i could not make a piece to compensate the weight of the top hat.
Possibly . . . At present, we have an "EC" ( efficiency coefficient ) of .33 ( 33% ) . . . Scotchmo indicated that an "EC", ranging from .35 to .38 should be possible.
Several factors come into play:
(1) Piston Weight
(2) Friction
(3) Alignment
(4) Other ( Need expert input here )
If the "EC" could be increased, this is what the "numbers" SHOULD look like, based on Scotchmo's equation :
.33 = 25.59 FPE
.34 = 26.37 FPE
.35 = 27.14 FPE
.36 = 27.92 FPE
.37 = 28.69 FPE
.38 = 29.47 FPE
Dave
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Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?
OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first
MOELLER "RED" . . . 900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE
The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE
Dave
Dave
you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello
Mike,
Yes, you can . . . Those are the "BLACK" gas rams . . .
Dave
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I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red
Mike,
Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?
Initial ?
Maximum ?
Thanks !
Dave
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I know alittle more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red
Mike,
Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?
Initial ?
Maximum ?
Thanks !
Dave
I have a digital scale I will get a book to lay on it and zero it out and try, I will have to be very careful its in the wfh and you know we cant put any pressure of=n the butt of the stock at trigger area. i will get back to you in a minit with that
Mike
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I know a little more would be awesome like 930 to 950 fps but honestly I would not like to try the moller yellow, judging the cocking level of the red
Mike,
Can you measure the Cocking Effort of the "RED" ram ?
Initial ?
Maximum ?
Thanks !
Dave
I have a digital scale I will get a book to lay on it and zero it out and try, I will have to be very careful its in the wfh and you know we cant put any pressure of=n the butt of the stock at trigger area. i will get back to you in a minit with that
Mike
ok Dave what I am getting is around 52 initially,
the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position i tried it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
But what did super teck use with what cal?
i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
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Back in the summer he had a long 12 page thread and he said power was near 42 FPE in .22
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Alright Tarheel, work your magic, what is the expected FPE with the borderline safest ram?
OK . . . "Real World" Numbers first
MOELLER "RED" . . . 900 fps X 900 fps X 14.3 gr / 450240 = 25.72 FPE
The "ideal" from Scotchmo's equation ( .23 EC ) = 27.14 FPE
Dave
Dave
you know the moller rams are adjustable I wonder Dave if we could order them with more power for in between the red and the yello
Mike,
Yes, you can . . . Those are the "BLACK" gas rams . . .
Dave
I thought I posted for this I dont se it
Monday I will call moller punch to see if i can send back the ram to have them fill it 30% more
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
But what did super teck use with what cal?
i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?
Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.
Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
But what did super teck use with what cal?
i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?
Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.
Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?
hi paul please scroll back up on this page I address the piston weight and what I did
thanks
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
Supertech77's rifle uses a gas ram more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram . . .
Dave
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
But what did super teck use with what cal?
i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
Mike,
Mick / Supertech77's gas ram is more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" . . . It is a .22 caliber WALTHER TALON MAGNUM ( Same as a HATSAN 125 ) .
I am somewhat doubtful of the "42FPE" number, but I sure would believe 38 FPE +/- !
Dave
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
But what did super teck use with what cal?
i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
Mike,
Mick / Supertech77's piston is more in the range of the MOELLER "YELLOW" . . . It is a .22 caliber WALTHER TALON MAGNUM ( Same as a HATSAN 125 ) .
I am somewhat doubtful of the "42FPE" number, but I sure would believe 38 FPE +/- !
Dave
I am looking into getting another crony to dave.
hey you know that 4-1/2'' of cocking piston travel was off of my tape measure it could of been a tad more if you get to the exact measurement ?? just going by my eye sight using a tape
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Back in the summer he had a long 12 page thread and he said power was near 42 FPE in .22
THIS thread is WELL-WORTH reading . . .
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,19419.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,19419.0.html)
Dave
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I am looking into getting another crony to dave.
hey you know that 4-1/2'' of cocking piston travel was off of my tape measure it could of been a tad more if you get to the exact measurement ?? just going by my eye sight using a tape
Mike,
According to every stroke length specification I've seen for the Hatsan 125, it is 120 mm . . .
120 mm = 4.724" or about 1/40" less than 4 3/4" . . .
Dave
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ok Dave what I am getting is around 52 initially,
the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position i tried it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
Hmm . . . Not "exact science" but interesting !
Apparently the Hatsan gives an Initial "Mechanical Advantage" of 3:1 and a Final "Mechanical Advantage" of 5:1
Given those numbers, a guesstimate of the Cocking Effort on a MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram would be:
Initial Cocking Effort : 67 lb
Final Cocking Effort : 61 lb
Dave
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ok Dave what I am getting is around 52 initially,
the final force is like 47 the digital scale will fluctuate so i am grabbing the numbers as i see them at first before they change usually lower if i keep the barrel in one position i tried it like 16 x lol every time is a little different
Hmm . . . Not "exact science" but interesting !
Apparently the Hatsan gives an Initial "Mechanical Advantage" of 3:1 and a Final "Mechanical Advantage" of 5:1
Given those numbers, a guesstimate of the Cocking Effort on a MOELLER "YELLOW" gas ram would be:
Initial Cocking Effort : 67 lb
Final Cocking Effort : 61 lb
Dave
well with that info Dave I hope moller puch will say sure send the m 90 125 red pistons back and for a smal fee we can add more Iam thinking dave 30 % more what do you think, i thought maybe 35 % but iam not sure
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I was hoping power would be comparable to Supertech's gas ram..
But what did super teck use with what cal?
i bet it was the equal to the yellow if your saying he got stronger fps
ST's has more than just a gas ram installed. Itpro did a lot of work tuning and matching the components. Remember, ST hasnt chronied his either, so he's giving perceptual results. He did say he switched to an Nforcer yellow though didnt he?
Given that Micro is getting 30+- Fpe in 25 cal from his 125 with a spring, and 22 cal usually (in most cases judging from forum member experiences) performs better than 25 cal FPS and Fpe wise, I'm thinking your initial results are a detune Mike.
Did you take into account the weight of the alignment block you made for the gas piston rod that sits within the actual piston? My 125 had no tophat, just a plastic washer, does your WFH have a tophat? If so, what is the difference in weight between the original tophat and the new alignment block?
hi paul please scroll back up on this page I address the piston weight and what I did
thanks
I was hoping since you guys were trying to get accurate results and know exactly what was going on, you'd have weighed the parts.
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well with that info Dave I hope moller puch will say sure send the m 90 125 red pistons back and for a smal fee we can add more Iam thinking dave 30 % more what do you think, i thought maybe 35 % but iam not sure
I just "crunched some numbers" . . .
The 140 bar "RED" gas ram has 2030 psi, while the 180 bar "YELLOW" has 2610 psi . . .
2610 / 2030 = 1.2857142 ( i.e. - A 28.57% increase )
Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar ( 2610 psi )
Dave
Click to ENLARGE . . .
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n561/Ez2cDave/MOELLERM90DATA.jpg)
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I was hoping since you guys were trying to get accurate results and know exactly what was going on, you'd have weighed the parts.
Paul,
Those are the kinds of details that sometimes get overlooked. Problems of that type could have been avoided if we had experienced tuners advising us on "proper procedures" but, unfortunately, that was not the case in this situation.
Dave
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Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.
You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.
There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.
Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.
THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.
As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.
The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.
The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.
I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.
I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.
Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.
Hope you guys get it ironed out.
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You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.
There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.
Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.
THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.
As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.
The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.
The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.
I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.
I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.
Paul,
That was very constructive and I am sure that Mike will get something out of your post, because I certainly did.
I am assuming that Mike would have to go back and put the rifle in it's original configuration and start from there, correct?
Next, at each step, a round of testing should be conducted to get comparative data. This would continue throughout the process.
I, for one, would like to have known the Initial &Final Cocking Force for the Spring, in order to be able to compare it to the gas ram.
Obviously, there is more work to be done and we need to follow a structured process as we go.
Thanks, Paul !
Dave
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I like to know if the wfh has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out the quattro trigger
How much preload do you have on the gas spring? If it is too much, the sear may not be getting full lockup each time. And how deep is the "divot"?
33% efficiency and 5 FPE/CI are the normal numbers that you can get. And you got them. More is possible but your numbers are right in line with what I would expect from dropping a gas spring in an otherwise stock airgun.
When you want to push beyond those number, the next thing that you need to look at is the piston seal. I recommend an o-ring piston seal if you want to push it.
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Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.
You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.
There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.
Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.
THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.
As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.
The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.
The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.
I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.
I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.
Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.
Hope you guys get it ironed out.
The original piston that was in the wfh with the spring and big top hat was reading 958 fps. now Since I ruined the new J M seal and reinstalled the original seal which was fine as mentioned in a early post, The original seal was fine getting great fps in the spring and top hat set up.
So now we know the moller ram reached 900 fps seal question is not a factor at this point!
How ever being there no more top hat, and no way to add a equal weighted adapter that goes into the bottom of the piston to keep the rams arm centered and pivot freely /
then we have to conclude are result are what they are. things are differnt because the spring is also out of the equasion not just the top hat!
after the ram is placed in the receiver with out any adapters you have less then 1'' to make adapters for both ends of the ram
that' and the results are as follows 900fps periods what we are dealing with.
you know the back and fourth stuff is getting to me its a real pita.
the used seal was good enough to get 958fps with the spring and top hat then it is good enough to use in the test on the conversion.
now at this point it comes down to the ram itself, yellow will be to much so.. I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
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I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Mike,
A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.
Dave
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I like to know if the wfh has the problem of not engaging once in a while when your trying to cock the barrel/ or if it is the mod that caused this, and there's something I am not seeing? my model is the sas with out the quattro trigger
How much preload do you have on the gas spring? If it is too much, the sear may not be getting full lockup each time. And how deep is the "divot"?
33% efficiency and 5 FPE/CI are the normal numbers that you can get. And you got them. More is possible but your numbers are right in line with what I would expect from dropping a gas spring in an otherwise stock airgun.
When you want to push beyond those number, the next thing that you need to look at is the piston seal. I recommend an o-ring piston seal if you want to push it.
pre load as stated in the part #2 post says 1/16'' if that very very little enough to say there is no pre load
I did try to add a thin washer beyond that which would of created about 1/8'' of pre load and I did not like how hard it was to try to compress the rear into place so I took that washer out, I did not wish to damage the receivers end trying to gain a 1/8'' of pre load.
Also with the piston traveling 4 1/2 '' the 90 % of rams stroke would be very close to being used up so pre load was not something I even wanted to attempt
Now I bought the wfh used, I have not been able to shoot it other then testing it since I bought it.
so the the sear occasionally not catching when the rifle is cocked, could be the safety needs adjustment or it may of had that problem when I bought it.
please see post up further again the seal used was good enough to get 958 fps with the wfh large spring and large top hat.
I am pretty certain what we have is what is expected with a conversion, so now its a matter of getting the moller ram with more power added into it I will call moller tomorrow to see if they will add 30 % more
the divot for the gas rams arn is deep enough so it creates a seating place where theres no way for it to loose its center position, no deeper the entire piece is only about 3/8'' wide then its drilled out for the divot in the middle
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I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Mike,
A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.
Dave
then what I need to ask them to do is se if we can get what a 155 bar?
I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol
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hows is it on the shot compared to the spring? If it feels better I might consider it.
-
hows is it on the shot copared to the spring? If it feels better I might consider it.
it feels smoother /they usually do
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I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Mike,
A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.
Dave
then what I need to ask them to do is se if we can get what a 155 bar?
I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol
Mike,
The increase from 140 bar to 180 bar is 1.2857 . . . That is an increase of 28.57% . . . Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar and you will have "YELLOW" specs.
Dave
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I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
I will call them tomorrow
Mike,
A 35% increase will put you beyond the maximum 180 bar 2610 psi limit . . . A 28.5% increase would take you from the 140 bar / 2030 psi "RED" level to the "YELLOW" level. If Moeller fills the gas ram to 180 bar, you will be at "YELLOW" specs.
Dave
then what I need to ask them to do is se if we can get what a 155 bar?
I should buy the fill and dump adapters and get my own nitrogen tank lol
Mike,
The increase from 140 bar to 180 bar is 1.2857 . . . That is an increase of 28.57% . . . Just ask them to fill it to 180 bar and you will have "YELLOW" specs.
Dave
either that or just get a even exchange i have a red 125 and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both then
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Ok, few things here, and I really don't try to sound like a spoil sport, particularly because I want to make this change myself once I have a 125 worth working with.
You can't just start putting the parts together, then speculate on what's going on. Any type of credible experiment has to start with a question (hypothesis), a procedure to test that hypothesis, accurate measurement of results, which then lead to your eventual answer ie goal.
There should have been a solid baseline established. Mike said he was getting about 958 fps, so I guess that would have to be it.
Next, only the ram should have been installed with the necessary hardware. In that case, the ram fitting weight should have been matched to the tophat weight, and any other changes minimized or equalized to keep the change in parameters as limited to only the power source as possible. Then another round of testing to establish the results.
THEN if things looked good, begin additional modifications like seals, piston weight changes, modification of spacers etc, with a test of results after each parameter change.
As it stands, it is pretty much impossible to tell what effect each change has had on the rifle. The gas ram fitting within the piston could be shaving or adding 50 fps+-, but no way to know.
The original seal could be shaving pressure due to too loose a fit, again, no way to know.
The stroke could even be off due to the ram spacer, (possible considering Mike noted issues with the sear engaging when he asked about cocking issues) but as long as it cocks, actual stroke **should** be the same.
I realize ya'll are in a hurry, but really, what's the rush? Mike lost a new seal because he did'nt want to wait during a break in period and tried to alter it, but wouldnt that be important as well to establish that the gun would indeed break in properly in the first place? He didn't even know if the JM seal was actually a problem or not yet.
I guess all I am saying is, you guys are going through a lot of trouble to iron out your ideas. You might as well slow down and have some patience so as not to waste all that effort.
Other tuners have noted many times, that most of their effective improvements took a lot of work, and a lot of time. This wont be any different.
Hope you guys get it ironed out.
The original piston that was in the wfh with the spring and big top hat was reading 958 fps. now Since I ruined the new J M seal and reinstalled the original seal which was fine as mentioned in a early post, The original seal was fine getting great fps in the spring and top hat set up.
So now we know the moller ram reached 900 fps seal question is not a factor at this point!
How ever being there no more top hat, and no way to add a equal weighted adapter that goes into the bottom of the piston to keep the rams arm centered and pivot freely /
then we have to conclude are result are what they are. things are differnt because the spring is also out of the equasion not just the top hat!
after the ram is placed in the receiver with out any adapters you have less then 1'' to make adapters for both ends of the ram
that' and the results are as follows 900fps periods what we are dealing with.
you know the back and fourth stuff is getting to me its a real pita.
the used seal was good enough to get 958fps with the spring and top hat then it is good enough to use in the test on the conversion.
now at this point it comes down to the ram itself, yellow will be to much so.. I will call moller to see if I can send the pistons back to have a additional 35 percent more added
Well, I tried. Good luck.
I'll let you guys see how I do it when I get my 125 replaced.
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either that or just get a even exchange i have a red 125 and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both then
[/quote]
Mike,
Yep . . . The perfect solution.
Dave
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either that or just get a even exchange i have a red 125 and a red 100 so I should get the yellow in both then
Mike,
Yep . . . The perfect solution.
Dave
[/quote] gees what did you say the cocking will be with the yellow ?? 60 lbs lol
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whats the cocking force on a stock 125?
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whats the cocking force on a stock 125?
i will let you know tomorrow
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I will call moller tomorrow.
I don't want a yellow I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders or even a tool to release pressure.
If the tool is inexpensive and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure drop/ I can then order a yellow test it, as well as adjust it
I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps is ideal
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whats the cocking force on a stock 125?
ok it is 1:14 am tomorrow is here lol
The cocking force on the hatsan 125 sniper is 53lb new from the factory, it has one shot thru it
but remember it will change when it has fully broken in. and to me that feels just fine I like it alot.
I just noticed this , and remember another member saying the same thing, the sites are further down the rifle and now I can see them clearer because of me having trouble seeing up close, so that 's definitely cool, and yes I still love the 125 sniper in camo /
and yes I still love the wfh to both cool rifles to have for sure
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MIKE,
The Cocking Force on a Hatsan 125 with the 180 bar Moeller "YELLOW" Gas Ram should be 67 lb. initially and then 61 lb. at the end of the cocking stroke.
Get Moeller to provide 180 bar ( 2610 psi ) gas rams, either through EXCHANGE or Pressure Modification of the "RED" ones.
Dave
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I will call moller tomorrow.
I don't want a yellow I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders or even a tool to release pressure.
If the tool is inexpensive and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure drop/ I can then order a yellow test it, as well as adjust it
I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps is ideal
The tool to fully degas a gas spring is simple. Also, I think someone could make a simple adapter that would allow them to charge a gas spring with air from a hand PCP pump. That would be good for experimenting and getting just the "right" pressure.
Your reasoning with 14.3gr pellets and 950fps is exactly how I think. There is no reason to have any more power in a .22 caliber airgun. 950fps puts you right at the high end of the sweet spot for distance and accuracy (in my opinion).
The gas springs respond well when using a low friction seal and light piston. A looser fitting, high quality seal will probably get you there even with the red label spring. You are already at 900fps, so it might be better to work on improving the the efficiency a little rather than the adding brute force.
I went from 10fpe (30% efficiency) to 12fpe (36% efficiency) by experimenting until I found the right seal and piston weight. The low friction seal made the most difference. And the weight changes were used to fine tune it for a particular pellet weight.
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With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!
Mark
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With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!
Mark
The N-Forcer "Yellow" gas rams have an Initial force of 200 lb and a Final force of 260lb .
The potential is there for 31.7 FPE, using an "EC" of .35 . . . 29.88 FPE using an "EC" of .33 .
Dave
Click to ENLARGE . . .
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n561/Ez2cDave/N-FORCERMF-19DATA.jpg)
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With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!
Mark
Maybe call them talk to a parts teck, see if you can buy the "de charge tool" and ask if it is easy to release a little pressure with out having the pressure drop to sudden ..
I am going to do that now that way I can buy the moller yellow and adjust them my self, we come this far now its time to complete are findings lol
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The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to decrease the pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure....oh....and nitrogen.
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Hi, Is there anyway you can post larger photos?
Try Ctrl and + or - on the ten key pad at the same time for a smaller or larger image.
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The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.
Actually, it requires all of that, PLUS Nitrogen !
Dave
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The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.
ok so just release minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.
moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure and I am now exchanging for the yellow.
spoke to there in house service teck.
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Now I am excited. because this is it Dave.
It all comes down to this. using the yellow as is or carefully depressurizing it lower.
the mechanics are basic, if some one knows what there doing in the first place,
Like anything else.
It would be nice to have the same piston for any rifle but made with different thickness to see how the weight will effect the out come. but we do not have that option with the wfh and the hatsan 125 sniper.
It is more work to balance the springer but at least you can get different springs and top hats for the most favorable results.
I am finally stoked now as the conclusion will wrap this up.
the whole project is down to this now
A /making the two parts for the rams conversion, ( that's been done several ways)
B / ordering the right ram and possibly the depressurizing tool for the moller rams
this is where we are at I am stoked.
I am having the other GTA members rams returned back to me , they will be exchanged for the moller yellow.
I have not been able to thank you Dave and the scotchamo guy, sorry cant remember his name off hand, but I will be sending him pictures, when I tear down the sniper 125 next
as well as posting them, that wont be until after I get the new rams back .
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Now I am excited. because this is it Dave.
It all comes down to this. using the yellow as is or carefully depressurizing it lower.
the mechanics are basic, if some one knows what there doing in the first place,
Like anything else.
It would be nice to have the same piston for any rifle but made with different thickness to see how the weight will effect the out come. but we do not have that option with the wfh and the hatsan 125 sniper.
It is more work to balance the springer but at least you can get different springs and top hats for the most favorable results.
I am finally stoked now as the conclusion will wrap this up.
the whole project is down to this now
A /making the two parts for the rams conversion, ( that's been done several ways)
B / ordering the right ram and possibly the depressurizing tool for the moller rams
this is where we are at I am stoked.
I am having the other GTA members rams returned back to me , they will be exchanged for the moller yellow.
I have not been able to thank you Dave and the scotchamo guy, sorry cant remember his name off hand, but I will be sending him pictures, when I tear down the sniper 125 next
as well as posting them, that wont be until after I get the new rams back .
Mike,
We need really good data, in case any further adjustments are necessary ( probably will be ). While you have everything apart, weigh the piston and other components. Make lots of notes and shoot pics as you go.
Be very careful and allow for a "break-in period" for the fit of the Seal. As it wears in, the numbers will likely show changes.
Be careful, Mike . . . This gas ram "means business" !
Dave
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I will call moller tomorrow.
I don't want a yellow I want something a little less. so I will speak to a rep for custom fill up orders or even a tool to release pressure.
If the tool is inexpensive and if releasing the pressure can be done slowly with out fear of a quick pressure drop/ I can then order a yellow test it, as well as adjust it
I feel Ideal for a .22 - 14.3 grn 950 to 970 fps is ideal
The tool to fully degas a gas spring is simple. Also, I think someone could make a simple adapter that would allow them to charge a gas spring with air from a hand PCP pump. That would be good for experimenting and getting just the "right" pressure.
Your reasoning with 14.3gr pellets and 950fps is exactly how I think. There is no reason to have any more power in a .22 caliber airgun. 950fps puts you right at the high end of the sweet spot for distance and accuracy (in my opinion).
The gas springs respond well when using a low friction seal and light piston. A looser fitting, high quality seal will probably get you there even with the red label spring. You are already at 900fps, so it might be better to work on improving the the efficiency a little rather than the adding brute force.
I went from 10fpe (30% efficiency) to 12fpe (36% efficiency) by experimenting until I found the right seal and piston weight. The low friction seal made the most difference. And the weight changes were used to fine tune it for a particular pellet weight.
I like how you think, Scotchmo !
Your practical and thinking mechanically enc-lined, with sound proper input far as I am concerned as well
This is not chemistry class.
there's no need to pull up the atoms and sub particles and measure and count the different atoms responses
It is a air rifle, and yes you will be looking for a proper power not over, not under
( the sweet spot)
Yes a tighter piston seal verses a less tighter piston seal, is a main factor for different results. How ever just like any tune rifle the piston seal should be just right .
not overly tight and not easy to push thru, it should feel as if it has decent drag but with out having to be overly forced
I totally understand jm making his seal for the hatsan 125 and wfh so that they need a break in period obviously he is just making sure no one can say his seal is under sized.
How ever there is no reason to have to use it as is if you are capable of making a adjustment , no different then if you made any other adjustment.
And fyi here its ok to make mistakes, we are all human stuff happens live and learn hopefully is what we all want to do with anything in life not just air rifles
J M says there's no need for adjustment on theses seals because he wants buyers to be aware there is no problem with the size, and that it will wear in and meet its own break in point in time
Once again it comes down to practicle common sense its that simple
The parts used on both ends of the ram, being that there is very little room left over, are basically parts that serve one purpose, "because you can not do much with them except use high quality parts and materials,they function as follows.
1. to hold bottom of gas spring
2.to keep rams arm pivot on center, and to keep it free to twist and pivot ever so slightly on its axis
Now If we were converting a gas ram rifle back to a springer from scratch, then there would be need of a lot of testing with different size top hat as well as different size springs/ it is harder to do a springer if you were doing it from scratch then a gas ram.
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I totally understand jm making his seal for the hatsan 125 and wfh so that they need a break in period obviously he is just making sure no one can say his seal is under sized.
Mike,
It also allows for someone who "over-hones" his cylinder too much, too !
Dave
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With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!
Mark
Mark,
Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?
Dave
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I totally understand jm making his seal for the hatsan 125 and wfh so that they need a break in period obviously he is just making sure no one can say his seal is under sized.
Mike,
It also allows for someone who "over-hones" his cylinder too much, too !
Dave
Absolutely Dave
Also allows for any receivers that are not exact to the original specks of its design, meaning some may be a little over
J M knows all this to well
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The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.
ok so just release minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.
moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure and I am now exchanging for the yellow.
spoke to there in house service teck.
Does the enforcer instructions mention to do it under water so you can see the amout of bubble when being discharged for a lower power amount?
That's what I would do Mark, so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
it will be a pain i believe cause then you have to install it, to see your results, but its part of getting to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.
It will not take much being that is a small cylinder, so minute is the word.
if i was doing it i do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface, and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol just food for thought
-
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.
ok so just release minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.
moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure and I am now exchanging for the yellow.
spoke to there in house service teck.
Does the enforcer instructions mention to do it under water so you can see the amout of bubble when being discharged for a lower power amount?
That's what I would do Mark, so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
it will be a pain i believe cause then you have to install it, to see your results, but its part of getting to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.
It will not take much being that is a small cylinder, so minute is the word.
if i was doing it i do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface, and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol just food for thought
The biggest problem is not knowing how much has been released and being unable to do anything about it if it is too much . . .
Dave
-
The N-Forcers come with instructions on how to pressure and recharge. Releasing gas is easy...only requires an allen wrench, but recharging requires a special adapter....and lots of pressure.
ok so just release minutely, a little pressure off will go a long way.
moller just sold me there tool for lowering the pressure and I am now exchanging for the yellow.
spoke to there in house service teck.
Does the enforcer instructions mention to do it under water so you can see the amout of bubble when being discharged for a lower power amount?
That's what I would do Mark, so I can see minute release of a few bubbles.
it will be a pain i believe cause then you have to install it, to see your results, but its part of getting to know how to deal with the pistons power and adjusting.
It will not take much being that is a small cylinder, so minute is the word.
if i was doing it i do it slowly under water, where you can see clearly just under the waters surface, and as soon as i got the slightest hit of 2 tiny bubble i stop lol just food for thought
The biggest problem is not knowing how much has been released and being unable to do anything about it if it is too much . . .
Dave
I believe moller would recharge if we need for a small fee
I would only let fine fine bubbles out and only a couple and that's it what a pain though to have to install it to test its results and have to keep taking everything apart till your where you want it...
I may look into buying the rest of the set up, so I can fill my own and read the fill amounts,and even buy a tank, they have places to buy gases
The tool i bought for de gasing was almost 16.00 ah I will play it by ear
-
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!
Mark
Mark,
Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?
Dave
My rifle is SAS with the 2nd iteration of the original trigger. Machined parts rather than laminated. I will take a look at reducing the pressure in the N-Forcer Yellow using the water methond Mike suggested. But I am in no hurry to go after that as the XL piston is doing pretty well.
Mark
-
With the N-Forcer Yellow in my WFH, I got 33 fpe with both my .22 and my .25....but the cocking effort involved wound up cracking the forestock on both guns. I am backing off to a Crosman XL gas spring. I may have two N-Forcer 120mm gas springs available soon!
Mark
Mark,
Is your rifle an SAS / QUATTRO model or is it the earlier version ?
Dave
My rifle is SAS with the 2nd iteration of the original trigger. Machined parts rather than laminated. I will take a look at reducing the pressure in the N-Forcer Yellow using the water method Mike suggested. But I am in no hurry to go after that as the XL piston is doing pretty well.
Mark
Mark,
Do you have any Chrony and Cocking Force numbers for your setup, as it is right now with the N-Forcer Yellow ?
Thanks !
Dave
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Wheels are turning in my head . . .
Mark got 33 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-
Moeller "Yellow" with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 34.7 FPE.
With Scotchmo's suggested "EC" of .33, until testing the FPE would be 33 FPE. . .
With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.
Dave
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Wheels are turning in my head . . .
Mark got 33 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-
Moeller "Yellow" with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 34.7 FPE.
With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.
Dave
well the hatsan 125 and wfh ( same) lol pistons are heavy duty thick and solid and big.
Cant wait to we all see what the results are for the guys with .25 calibers they should feel very happy.
I my self would be very happy with 950. 960 tops in my .22
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Wheels are turning in my head . . . I added in Scotchmo's "EC" of .33 before testing .
Mark got 32.3 fpe with an Average Force of 230 lb ( 200 + 260 / 2 ) . . . N-Forcer "Yellow", indicating an "EC" of .35 +/-
Moeller "Yellow" with an Average Force of 253.5 lb ( 203 + 304 / 2 ) . . . In the SAME rifle, it might produce 33.9 FPE.
With those theoretical numbers, it sounds like the Moeller Yellow will do everything we have hoped that it would, provided that the "balance" of the setup is right.
Dave
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Personally, these are MY "goals" . . . I could "live with" 33 - 34 fpe, depending on how things turn out.
1 - 950 FPS w / 18.1 gr pellets ( 36.3 FPE )
2 - 860 FPS w / 22.1 gr pellets ( 36.3 FPE )
By comparison, we are getting 900 FPS w / 14.3 gr pellets ( 25.7 FPE )
In order to achieve 36.3 FPE w / 14.3 gr pellets, velocity would have to increase to 1070 FPS ( too fast for accuracy, but I would use heavier pellets )
In comparison, the increase from the 197 lb Average Force of the Moeller "RED" gas ram to the 253.5 lb Average Force of the Moeller "YELLOW" gas ram should increase velocity w / 14.3 gr pellets to 1029 FPS, yielding 33.6 FPE ( close enough for me ).
Of course, the .25 caliber guns have not been done, yet, either . . .
Dave
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Guys,
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...
Shot Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
1 CPHP 14.3 941.3 28.14155421
2 14.3 953.5 28.87575554
3 14.3 964.8 29.56422857
4 14.3 966 29.63781716
5 14.3 967.1 29.70535373
6 14.3 964.7 29.55810032
7 14.3 965.7 29.61941144
8 14.3 969.1 29.8283444
9 14.3 968.3 29.77911764
10 14.3 970.3 29.90226077
Average 963.08 29.4589111
Min 941.3 28.14155421
Max 970.3 29.90226077
Spread 29 1.760706557
I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:
Shot Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
1 H&N FTT 20.06 852 32.34193817
2 20.06 850.5 32.22815835
3 20.06 851.7 32.31916616
4 20.06 849.8 32.17512971
5 20.06 849.4 32.14484724
6 20.06 851.4 32.29640218
7 20.06 853.6 32.46352429
8 20.06 852.7 32.39510403
9 20.06 851.8 32.32675594
10 20.06 852.5 32.37990933
Average 851.54 32.30702437
Min 849.4 32.14484724
Max 853.6 32.46352429
Spread 4.2 0.318677052
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I like waffles, who else likes waffles?
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I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:
Shot Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
1 H&N FTT 20.06 852 32.34193817
2 20.06 850.5 32.22815835
3 20.06 851.7 32.31916616
4 20.06 849.8 32.17512971
5 20.06 849.4 32.14484724
6 20.06 851.4 32.29640218
7 20.06 853.6 32.46352429
8 20.06 852.7 32.39510403
9 20.06 851.8 32.32675594
10 20.06 852.5 32.37990933
Average 851.54 32.30702437
Min 849.4 32.14484724
Max 853.6 32.46352429
Spread 4.2 0.318677052
Naughty boy . . . Now, I have to re-calculate !
But accurate data is better anyway !
Dave
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NOT BAD #'S FOR A .25. I will take those anytime.
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Guys,
Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...
Shot Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
1 CPHP 14.3 941.3 28.14155421
Average 963.08 29.4589111
I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:
Shot Pellet Grains Velocity FPE
1 H&N FTT 20.06 852 32.34193817
Average 851.54 32.30702437
OK . . . The .25 caliber w / N-forcer "Yellow" was 32.3 FPE . . . Moeller "Yellow" should be 34 FPE
I wish I had some Force Numbers for the XL ram to compare.
HMM . . . Actually I DO !
The Average Force of the XL Nitro Piston works out to be 226 lb, based on an "EC" of .33 . . . Slightly less than the N-Forcer "Yellow" .
Dave
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Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...
I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:
Mark,
During the time you had the N-Forcer gas ram "Yellow" gas ram installed, did you suffer any parts breakage ( other than the stock ) and did any parts, particularly the SEAR and other TRIGGER parts show any signs of premature or excessive wear ?
Thanks !
Dave
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Here is what I got with my .22 WFH with the Crosman XL gas spring...after cylinder hone, JM Seal, Piston polish, debur and lube. Stock with spring was about 980fps....but I did not record a string with stock spring...
I lied. I did not get 33 fpe with the N-Forcer Yellow. It was 32. Here is what I got with my .25 with the N-Forcer yellow, JM seal, cylinder hone, debur, and lube:
Mark,
During the time you had the N-Forcer gas ram "Yellow" gas ram installed, did you suffer any parts breakage ( other than the stock ) and did any parts, particularly the SEAR and other TRIGGER parts show any signs of premature or excessive wear ?
Thanks !
Dave
The sear showed no excessive wear, but while my .25 was cocked, I reached for a pellet, got distracted and the gun slipped from my hand. The shoulder cocking slot of the piston slipped off the sear and the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block. When I disassembled it, there was no apparent damage to the sear..or the cocking shoulder of the piston.
I felt very fortunate that my fingers were not close to the breech, or between the cocking lever and the stock. I am comfortable with the XL piston right now and they are about $30 shipped. If they last half as long as the N-Forcer or Moeller, I will be happy.
Mark
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The sear showed no excessive wear, but while my .25 was cocked, I reached for a pellet, got distracted and the gun slipped from my hand. The shoulder cocking slot of the piston slipped off the sear and the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block. When I disassembled it, there was no apparent damage to the sear..or the cocking shoulder of the piston.
I felt very fortunate that my fingers were not close to the breech, or between the cocking lever and the stock. I am comfortable with the XL piston right now and they are about $30 shipped. If they last half as long as the N-Forcer or Moeller, I will be happy.
Mark
This was NOT on a QUATTRO trigger equipped rifle . . .
Supposedly, the QUATTRO trigger is design to "NEVER" fire if dropped, even if the safety is off . . .
How were you able to determine what caused it, Mark, rather than a failure of the "Anti-Beartrap Mechanism", for example.
Just hunting for facts to store away . . .
Dave
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When you have all that energy stored, and held in place by less than 1/8 square inch of steel in engagement, it causes one to raise their eyebrows. Actually, the angle that it fell jarred the trigger mechanism, which moved in the stock. The bear trap actully moved, allowing the safety latch to move forward, allowing the trigger to release. I had adjusted and tuned the trigger for little travel and a light pull. Perhaps an untuned trigger might not have released. Not sure....... :-\
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When you have all that energy stored, and held in place by less than 1/8 square inch of steel in engagement, it causes one to raise their eyebrows. Actually, the angle that it fell jarred the trigger mechanism, which moved in the stock. The bear trap actully moved, allowing the safety latch to move forward, allowing the trigger to release. I had adjusted and tuned the trigger for little travel and a light pull. Perhaps an untuned trigger might not have released. Not sure....... :-\
Was that the only time there was a problem like that, Mark ?
Did you make any changes to the rifle after that ?
Thanks,
Dave
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That was the only problem. I have not shot the .25 since because of the bent barrel. ......that is the next project...
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That was the only problem. I have not shot the .25 since because of the bent barrel. ......that is the next project...
Mark,
Think it can be straightened ?
Bob has plans for a "barrel-straightener", of sorts, on GTA . . .
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/library/Charlies%20Barrel%20Tool.pdf (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/library/Charlies%20Barrel%20Tool.pdf)
Do you think you could adapt it to work for you ?
Dave
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Just bought the eye bolts and wood today. Gonna give it a try. Nothing to lose.
Thanks!
Mark
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You noticed no hairline cracks in the breach block when this was done? The HAtsan has beefed up the block top area. Barrels are pressed in block. I had NO bent barrel but a cracked breach block on a WFH not thur new HAtson.
So again!! These things are not toys with this much power. Safety Is the of the utmost. Stored Energy.
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Just bought the eye bolts and wood today. Gonna give it a try. Nothing to lose.
Thanks!
Mark
Mark,
I hope all goes well . . .
Best wishes & GOOD LUCK !
Dave
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This has been one of the best posts I have ever read!! I really want to express my thanks and gratitude to all of you. I learned and gleaned a ton of information with out breaking out the spring compressor!!! LOL!
Mike your efforts are truly inspiring. Thank you and thanks to all who unselfishly threw in their two cents.
With High Regards
Ray
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This has been one of the best posts I have ever read!! I really want to express my thanks and gratitude to all of you. I learned and gleaned a ton of information with out breaking out the spring compressor!!! LOL!
Mike your efforts are truly inspiring. Thank you and thanks to all who unselfishly threw in their two cents.
With High Regards
Ray
your welcome, any question feel free, only thing I would change is the delrin piece I made for the end of the rams body, instead of making it 7/8'' to fit the 3/4'' rams body I like to make it smaller but not tight just remove the extra 1/8'' of play
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...the barrel snapped shut so hard that it bent the barrel UP, just forward of the breech block...Mark
I submit with respect that the barrel straightener is fine for certain types of bend but not ideal for YOUR bend. The proper way to unbend is to apply a force equal and opposite to that which caused the unfortunate bend in the first place. Here is a very simple way to apply that very equal and opposite corrective force. Chuck up (edgewise, i.e. with a narrow edge sticking upward) a block of hard wood (i used a 3/4"X4"X8" piece of laminated plywood from my scrap pile) in your bench vice. Remove the stock. Stand flat footed with knees slightly bent. Holding the action upright and pointing upward, swing it down so that the bottom front of the compression tube hits the top edge of the wood block. This is not batting practice, but adjust your stance as needed, relax, think it through, and don't be in a hurry. The wood is hard enough to withstand repeated blows and soft enough not to damage the metal action. Repeated impacts will straighten the barrel where it needs to be straightened. Merely dropping the action down will probably not be sufficiently forceful enough to do the job, so swing it down firmly and accurately enough to not miss the wood. Repeat as needed until the barrel is straight enough. A straight edge (such as a metal meter stick) along the compression tube can be used to monitor the misalignment of the barrel. I did this to my breakbarrel after a similar incident; canceled out some unwanted droop at the same time. It is conceivable that the alive jam will bend the detent during this process; that did not happen to mine but even if it had, the detent is relatively easy to replace.
Edit: hmm...it appears that i forgot to mention an important detail in the above. For this to work, the alive jam spring must be replaced temporarily with a metal dowel to prevent the alive jam from receding into its hole.