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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Machine Shop Talk & AG Parts Machining => Engineering- Research & Development => Topic started by: David.Soliman on August 01, 2013, 09:35:29 PM

Title: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 01, 2013, 09:35:29 PM
Hi folks, I am in a bit of a tight spot here and I need some help, and from my experience this is the place to ask for it.
I have a lot of friends that share our addiction and it is mainly hunting they are interested in, and with pellets becoming very scarce and too over pieced, they have come together and decided to make their own.

Now I sort of got involved into this because I have good experience making custom parts for airguns, and they need me to help design a machine that will be able to spit out a lot of very accurate pellets very quickly.

Money and precision are no issue, we have access to any sort of machining it may take, CNC lathe, wire cut, laser a regular lathe you name it we can get our hands on it, but the problem is the design of the machine itself, it needs to be an automated process.

My part is to design the thing and see it gets built to specs, but the problem is I don't know where to start I don't even have a clue.

I understand that pellets are made from a lead wire that is cut and swaged with three dies, two halves making the contour and a third forming the skirt (and maybe a fourth if the pellets were hollow points).

The pellet type we are looking for is a Diablo profile because that is the only appealing type for airgunners here and preferably a hollow point.

But when I look into some high end pellets like the R10 Match competition pellets it is very difficult to see the die marks on the pellet, how do they make em like that???!!!

Is there any literature on that topic? videos? anything that would give me ideas?

Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: breakfastchef on August 01, 2013, 09:53:47 PM
Million and millions of dollars probably have been spent by major manufacturers to perfect the pellet. I would not even venture a guess how you would locate machinery. Your first inquiry should be with Vogel (http://www.vogelusa.com/ (http://www.vogelusa.com/)). They used to sell machinery to manufacture pellets, and now make high end match grade pellets under their own brand. Maybe they can kickstart your monumental project.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: Rescue912 on August 01, 2013, 11:25:12 PM
I made a bar-napkin sketch of a manual pellet maker that uses two flat dies after touring an ARP fasteners plant and seeing how they roll threads onto their studs and bolts. Seemed like it would be pretty simple to roll something like lead with such a low BHN. I have a benchtop mill & lathe but not anywhere near tool & die quality so I never tried building it.

Check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubb7hhRehsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubb7hhRehsc)

At around 1:55 there is a thread roller which is similar to what I was thinking about. Mine was arranged vertically and lead rope fed in horizontally at the top. A stomp pedal sheared the rope, the dies rolled to size and a finished pellet fell out the bottom. A two piece die on either side would allow fine tuning head & skirt diameters.

The only thing I hadn't figured out was how to locate the pellet while rolling to swage the skirt. Now that I think about it, even that wouldn't be a big deal if the orientation of the round was 180 degrees from how I originally pictured it. A dome head would be the simplest to form and in one pass all features would be formed. The same arrangement could be used for different calibers with a different set of dies.

Not sure what I did with the sketches but I only put a couple hours of thought into it on the plane back from Spain after a business trip. Watch that video and see if any of this makes sense to you. PM me if all of this is clear as mud and when you go into production I will be a beta tester  8)
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: sixshootertexan on August 02, 2013, 12:02:28 AM
See if this video will help you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc)
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 02, 2013, 06:03:54 AM
I made a bar-napkin sketch of a manual pellet maker that uses two flat dies after touring an ARP fasteners plant and seeing how they roll threads onto their studs and bolts. Seemed like it would be pretty simple to roll something like lead with such a low BHN. I have a benchtop mill & lathe but not anywhere near tool & die quality so I never tried building it.

Check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubb7hhRehsc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubb7hhRehsc)

At around 1:55 there is a thread roller which is similar to what I was thinking about. Mine was arranged vertically and lead rope fed in horizontally at the top. A stomp pedal sheared the rope, the dies rolled to size and a finished pellet fell out the bottom. A two piece die on either side would allow fine tuning head & skirt diameters.

The only thing I hadn't figured out was how to locate the pellet while rolling to swage the skirt. Now that I think about it, even that wouldn't be a big deal if the orientation of the round was 180 degrees from how I originally pictured it. A dome head would be the simplest to form and in one pass all features would be formed. The same arrangement could be used for different calibers with a different set of dies.

Not sure what I did with the sketches but I only put a couple hours of thought into it on the plane back from Spain after a business trip. Watch that video and see if any of this makes sense to you. PM me if all of this is clear as mud and when you go into production I will be a beta tester  8)

I think that lead is too soft for this kind of manufacturing, but I am sure that there are many brands that are made that way. Here in Egypt there are at least four local brands that are made by rolling, but they are the least accurate, you would be better off shooting pebbles than these.

Sorting these pellets make a lot of difference and you may get some pretty good results out of them after sorting, but then again its a lot of work and very nauseous.

These pellets will be made on a large scale and most of them sold commercially so we need something that will shoot good straight out of the box.

Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 02, 2013, 06:10:09 AM
See if this video will help you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc)

That is very cool Ricky, now all I need to do is figure out how this infernal machine works. It seems quite obvious though, it is not a continuous feed, which would make pellets way more accurate IMO, but the production would be a lot slower.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 02, 2013, 12:25:31 PM
I think with all the variables involved if I were to make my own pellets they would be in the so called "ash can" shape :-).

[img://www.hn-sport.de/typo3temp/pics/88e1f26e85.jpg[/img]

I know the diabolo form has really taken over....but IMHO it will be exponentially harder to do on a small scale....so a very good cylindrical pellet may be far far easier to make than a mediocre diabolo. I think MAYBE one could use lead shot and just ONE die to make a decent ash can pellet in one hit.

A #T buckshot pellet weighs 12.0 grains according to one source, not sure how uniform they are, using a bleed die to get exact weight adds a step.Not sure if you can get pure lead T buck or not. "Good" buskshot is usually hardened with antimony.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 02, 2013, 06:41:01 PM
I came up with some dimensions for the pellet and a general idea on how I would approach this.



(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg482/karammahroos/Pelletdimentions_zpsaade280a.jpg)



I watched a lot of youtube videos on "rotary tablet presses" and I think I may have it figured out. The pellet will be made in just two stages, instead of having a lead wire cut, the pellets will be punched out of a sheet of lead with a specific thickness.
Step two would be swaging the pellet in three dies; the red (two halves), the blue for dome and the green for the recession in the skirt.


(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg482/karammahroos/dies_zps35b2fab0.png)
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 03, 2013, 01:06:55 AM
Well to get your final form perfect, you will have to control all of the features of the pellet in one die ?? I would not think you can form one feature, then another, then another without damaging what was already done ?

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: OleTomCat on August 03, 2013, 01:32:25 AM
I think with all the variables involved if I were to make my own pellets they would be in the so called "ash can" shape :-).

(http://www.hn-sport.de/typo3temp/pics/88e1f26e85.jpg)

I know the diabolo form has really taken over....but IMHO it will be exponentially harder to do on a small scale....so a very good cylindrical pellet may be far far easier to make than a mediocre diabolo. I think MAYBE one could use lead shot and just ONE die to make a decent ash can pellet in one hit.

A #T buckshot pellet weighs 12.0 grains according to one source, not sure how uniform they are, using a bleed die to get exact weight adds a step.Not sure if you can get pure lead T buck or not. "Good" buskshot is usually hardened with antimony.

Fixed your pic.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 03, 2013, 06:09:11 AM
Well to get your final form perfect, you will have to control all of the features of the pellet in one die ?? I would not think you can form one feature, then another, then another without damaging what was already done ?

Bill

I am not Bill, all the features will be made in one press.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 03, 2013, 09:51:55 AM
I think with all the variables involved if I were to make my own pellets they would be in the so called "ash can" shape :-).

(http://www.hn-sport.de/typo3temp/pics/88e1f26e85.jpg)

I know the diabolo form has really taken over....but IMHO it will be exponentially harder to do on a small scale....so a very good cylindrical pellet may be far far easier to make than a mediocre diabolo. I think MAYBE one could use lead shot and just ONE die to make a decent ash can pellet in one hit.

A #T buckshot pellet weighs 12.0 grains according to one source, not sure how uniform they are, using a bleed die to get exact weight adds a step.Not sure if you can get pure lead T buck or not. "Good" buskshot is usually hardened with antimony.

Fixed your pic.

It was intentional not embedding it, did not want to step over some line with either the board or H-N :-).

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 03, 2013, 09:55:42 AM
Well to get your final form perfect, you will have to control all of the features of the pellet in one die ?? I would not think you can form one feature, then another, then another without damaging what was already done ?

Bill

I am not Bill, all the features will be made in one press.

I'm sure your words just created a different mental picture than you intended :-).

All in one smash would work :-).......but the split die is what makes it really complicated. I have thought on it a bit to try to swage lube grooves or lube dimples into a PB bullet before it it makes my head hurt every time :-).

I'd guess the top end pellet makers are using die parts all made from carbide, and some very high pressures, and for some PB bullet swaging a slight dwell at full pressure is said to be key to a good product...to let the lead finish flowing.

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: shorty on August 03, 2013, 10:43:31 AM
 I have been interested in making my own pellets as well. I was curious to know if the lead stock (raw material) can be in wire form before final shaping of nose and skirt. If this may be an idea to start with I can surely help.
I have all the resources to needed for precision wire drawing (reel to reel) along with wire straightening. A while back, I was asked to manufacture fine diameter <.003" solder for micro electronics. The lead or solder beginning size was approximately .03" and I was able to draw it down to .00278" continuously.

The point being is during wire drawing, final diameters are very precision with high output. The next step after the lead has been drawn to the proper diameter for a pellet is kind of where your ideas would come in if any. Although, if you think of the potential, there might be something there. For example, a simple cup burr tool can surely take care of the nose.

Just an idea to get out there.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 03, 2013, 11:20:38 AM
Here is another picture of the dies that I am talking about, I hope it makes things a little clearer. The dies are two punches; the green and blue and the pink one is split in two halves. To form the pellet first the two pink halves come together, the lead ball is dropped in and then the two punches press to form the pellet. After forming the pellet the top punch (green) retracts (to prevent the pellet from sticking to it) then the two halves open, now the pellet is only resting on the blue punch that formed the dome, and the blue punch hits the pellet on a rubber skirt causing it to fall over.

(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg482/karammahroos/dies_zps18c97c93.jpg)


I'm now trying to make the whole process automated, thinking of designs for the machine. Once I finish I'll make a prototype of the molds, if they are to specs I'll make a whole bunch of them and maybe make a conveyer belt of some sort.

When that is done I'll try an make some pellets and when that is done I'll be making pellets in different head diameters, but I am getting ahead of myself here. :D
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 03, 2013, 01:25:19 PM
That all looks good :-)....making it all work will be interesting :-).

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: QVTom on August 03, 2013, 02:12:38 PM
You will need an ejector sleeve for the skirt core pin to push off the finished pellet.  Also consider what ever blank form of lead you are using it must be narrow enough so when the two halves of the die comes together it doesn't squish out into the mating surfaces and create a flash.  Additionally the skirt and head core pins will need to be properly timed to get consistent cold flow of the lead.

I see the most challenging part to get consistently weight blanks for the final form process.

Quite a project have taken on.

Tom
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 03, 2013, 07:10:47 PM
I appreciate all your input and is giving me a lot of very good ideas, please keep em coming.

I have sketched how the system will work, I know it's not the clearest image but I did my best.

(http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg482/karammahroos/DSC_0710_zpse99d8ab5.jpg)


The idea is a lubricated strip of lead with specific thickness will be fed through a groove in the bottom of the two dies.

step 1:
The dies will then tighten and secure the lead strip in place (which is really not important).

Step 2:
The lower punch forming the dome will punch through the lead strip cutting a piece of an exact weight and force it into the mold. Now with the dies already closed this should prevent flashing (or at least minimize it).

Step 3:
The top punch forming the skirt moves down and, well forms the skirt :D.

Step 4:
The top punch retracts.

Step 5:
The two dies open up and free the pellet. Now it is only sticking on the lower punch.

Step 6:
The lower punch gently rubs the pellet on a rubber skirt/blind to drop the pellet.

Step 7:
The lower punch retracts and leaves the spent/un-used lead behind.


Now I am thinking a conveyer belt with lots of these dies. What do you think?





Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: Paul68 on August 03, 2013, 08:28:21 PM
Not being a machinist all I could add would be to remember the fragility of a lead pellet. You might want to keep any drop when being freed of the die to be as short as possible to avoid dented skirts. Same thing with finished batches, avoiding too many in a batch and how much they are dropped-rolled during the process. A thousand pellets all dropping off a conveyor to a catch a foot below would seem a good chance of many damaged pellets.
 
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: OleTomCat on August 04, 2013, 01:17:58 AM
If you are going to automate this a little Slick Brick PLC and VFD for the conveyor would be perfect.....

I second keeping the drops down to a couple of inches...
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: Slavia on August 04, 2013, 03:21:40 AM
You might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2de1DECtQfc)
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: QVTom on August 04, 2013, 02:36:55 PM
One possible trouble spot I see, I say possible because I have no experience extruding lead, is the diameter of the slug that will be punched by the head core/punch pin is much larger than the waist of the die and will need to extrude into the skirt area to form properly.  Also I think you are looking at a lead strip with 6-10X the thickness as drawn.

Tom
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: Bullit on August 04, 2013, 04:05:45 PM
You're wasting a lot of lead by punch process, which means more cost in re-melts, to recover it.  With cutting round stock you're getting 99% yield, without handling sheet stock.  Let the supplier's round stock work and spooling, work to your advantage, for your equipment, dies, and men.  JMO
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 04, 2013, 04:41:19 PM
You're wasting a lot of lead by punch process, which means more cost in re-melts, to recover it.  With cutting round stock you're getting 99% yield, without handling sheet stock.  Let the supplier's round stock work and spooling, work to your advantage, for your equipment, dies, and men.  JMO

I have no supplier, I'll be melting lead ingots and making sheets out of them myself, it's extra work but I haven't found a supplier with lead wire.
Cutting the wire is a lot easier than punching holes and more economical, but feeding the lead shots/balls or what ever into the mold could be a lot more work than just re-melting the spent strip.

I am open to suggestions on how to feed pellet shots into the mold instead of punching it out of a sheet if you have any ideas please help me out here.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: Bullit on August 04, 2013, 05:05:05 PM
cut the "slug" and feed it downstream to your cold forming tooling. Yes, it is precise, but that's what you are trying to acheive.  The better you start with, the easier it is to acheive your goal...unless you really wanna spend big bucks on production.  I really don't know how pellets are made, but sheet wouldn't be my choice.   Lead is quite mallable.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 07, 2013, 12:28:41 AM
You're wasting a lot of lead by punch process, which means more cost in re-melts, to recover it.  With cutting round stock you're getting 99% yield, without handling sheet stock.  Let the supplier's round stock work and spooling, work to your advantage, for your equipment, dies, and men.  JMO

I have no supplier, I'll be melting lead ingots and making sheets out of them myself, it's extra work but I haven't found a supplier with lead wire.
Cutting the wire is a lot easier than punching holes and more economical, but feeding the lead shots/balls or what ever into the mold could be a lot more work than just re-melting the spent strip.

I am open to suggestions on how to feed pellet shots into the mold instead of punching it out of a sheet if you have any ideas please help me out here.

You can extrude your own lead wire easier than making sheets probably.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73664-Wire-extruding-with-log-splitter (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73664-Wire-extruding-with-log-splitter)!!&highlight=lead+wire

Some folks apparently use a log splitter.

Any highly accurate system for pellets I think would have to at some point in the process bleed the lead cores to a consistent weight.
http://www.corbins.com/swaging.htm#csw (http://www.corbins.com/swaging.htm#csw)


Bill
Title: Talk to Mr. Pilkington
Post by: TimmyMac1 on August 07, 2013, 11:59:18 AM
PCE is Pilkington Competition Equipment in Tenn. Scott Pilkington is a guy who knows what you need to know and has done what you want to do. He told me if I came up with the tooling cost or made the tooling he would make pellets on his machines.
That was a while ago so I'm not sure if he still has that capability but he is a guy who HAS the T-SHIRT. Scott is a Southern gentleman that is a lot smarter than the average guy. He has been emersed in the 10 meter scene for as long as I have been into FT. That is decades! He is also a Master engraver & Airgunsmith. Scott's PCE landline is 931-924-3400 website is; http://www.pilkguns.com/ (http://www.pilkguns.com/)

I'm certain you do not need to invent the wheel. Just find the guy with the wheel factory and tell him what you want to make. This is a moment to avoid vertical integration. I'll bet there are pellet making machines that are under-utilized. They are extremely specialized machines, especially when you start talking about the precision stuff. I designed the RWS Superdome but I was never thinking I could come up with the machine to make it.
You need manufacturing means and resources to fund. Designing and production engineering is critical. It cost just as much to make a poor pellet as a good one. The design is the element best left to the people with the sharpest knowledge and expertise.
If You have specs You are ready to talk tooling & tolerances. Question is what are your tolerances and can you make the tooling. I'd go with a Pro because the first thing you learn in manufacturing is your limitations. You need the machines to do the actual manufacturing but I don't think you need to own them. You need the tooling but it would be best done by someone who is doing that at the highest level. The only reason I have manufactured what I have is because I know when to punt. A man needs to know his limitations!
Good Luck. We need some competition to stir things up. Nothing I'd like to see more than a New dome made in the USA that rocks. Dan Brown would be a good guy to get feedback in terms of what pellet he'd like to see for his bughole barrel. You need help in every aspect of the project and that is obvious by your questions. When you get Pro help it makes you look a lot smarter than you actually are. It worked for me. All you need is raw determination and you will get where you want to go. I'm living proof of that.
I would thrive on some American Made Ammo to shoot in the WORLDS BR championship in Australia(2015). That would be awesome. Go For It

TimmyMac1
Title: Re: Talk to Mr. Pilkington
Post by: David.Soliman on August 07, 2013, 03:12:12 PM
PCE is Pilkington Competition Equipment in Tenn. Scott Pilkington is a guy who knows what you need to know and has done what you want to do. He told me if I came up with the tooling cost or made the tooling he would make pellets on his machines.
That was a while ago so I'm not sure if he still has that capability but he is a guy who HAS the T-SHIRT. Scott is a Southern gentleman that is a lot smarter than the average guy. He has been emersed in the 10 meter scene for as long as I have been into FT. That is decades! He is also a Master engraver & Airgunsmith. Scott's PCE landline is 931-924-3400 website is; http://www.pilkguns.com/ (http://www.pilkguns.com/)

I'm certain you do not need to invent the wheel. Just find the guy with the wheel factory and tell him what you want to make. This is a moment to avoid vertical integration. I'll bet there are pellet making machines that are under-utilized. They are extremely specialized machines, especially when you start talking about the precision stuff. I designed the RWS Superdome but I was never thinking I could come up with the machine to make it.
You need manufacturing means and resources to fund. Designing and production engineering is critical. It cost just as much to make a poor pellet as a good one. The design is the element best left to the people with the sharpest knowledge and expertise.
If You have specs You are ready to talk tooling & tolerances. Question is what are your tolerances and can you make the tooling. I'd go with a Pro because the first thing you learn in manufacturing is your limitations. You need the machines to do the actual manufacturing but I don't think you need to own them. You need the tooling but it would be best done by someone who is doing that at the highest level. The only reason I have manufactured what I have is because I know when to punt. A man needs to know his limitations!
Good Luck. We need some competition to stir things up. Nothing I'd like to see more than a New dome made in the USA that rocks. Dan Brown would be a good guy to get feedback in terms of what pellet he'd like to see for his bughole barrel. You need help in every aspect of the project and that is obvious by your questions. When you get Pro help it makes you look a lot smarter than you actually are. It worked for me. All you need is raw determination and you will get where you want to go. I'm living proof of that.
I would thrive on some American Made Ammo to shoot in the WORLDS BR championship in Australia(2015). That would be awesome. Go For It

TimmyMac1

Thank you for the sound advice, I have made a lot of custom airgun parts and I didn't machine one of them, I only design them. I am very convinced that taking it to an expert is a very good way to avoid the problems I don't know about.
I am only making the design here, and I know a machine shop with some high tech gizmos that can probably make it happen. I care very little about whether the people funding this project are actually willing to go through with it or not, I just want to design it (think it out) down to every screw. If the people with the money are actually willing to make it, it would be up to me to see that it works properly.

Determination is what I do best, I've never had a project succeed from the first build, but then again I never had one that failed.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: Bullit on August 07, 2013, 03:40:19 PM
Anything you can do to research your endeavor, will help you with the intricacies and logistics involved.  Timmy Mac has given you some good info in this avenue.  I wish you best success!
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: shorty on August 10, 2013, 10:10:40 AM
I didn't think we were all talking about making the best performing pellet in the USA here. Just a cheap machine that can make pellets at home for the enthusiasts. Never the less, I would still like to see something in the USA perform.

I have been and still am and engineer in the wire business for over 20 years. I have also built some pretty incredible machines. I would like to pass an idea over to consider. My sketches aren't the best but you should get the idea. If you need to make lead wire, it can be rolled fairly easy with a jewelers rolling mill (cheap under 300 bucks ). You can also draw your own lead using wire drawing dies. Used drawing dies can be found on the cheap. You can also use that jewelers mill to flatten your wire to a ribbon. By using a ribbon, there would be less waste than using sheet.

Here's the sketch of what my idea would be if spooled round wire/lead was used.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: strever on August 10, 2013, 07:09:56 PM
image too small and too dark to see
can you fix it?


Here's the sketch of what my idea would be if spooled round wire/lead was used.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 11, 2013, 08:12:03 AM
I didn't think we were all talking about making the best performing pellet in the USA here. Just a cheap machine that can make pellets at home for the enthusiasts. Never the less, I would still like to see something in the USA perform.

I have been and still am and engineer in the wire business for over 20 years. I have also built some pretty incredible machines. I would like to pass an idea over to consider. My sketches aren't the best but you should get the idea. If you need to make lead wire, it can be rolled fairly easy with a jewelers rolling mill (cheap under 300 bucks ). You can also draw your own lead using wire drawing dies. Used drawing dies can be found on the cheap. You can also use that jewelers mill to flatten your wire to a ribbon. By using a ribbon, there would be less waste than using sheet.

Here's the sketch of what my idea would be if spooled round wire/lead was used.

Yeah I thought a jewelers' rolling mill is a perfect choice cause you can very precisely dial in the desired thickness an I did ask about their prices, they are very cheap less than 200 USD, determining the pellet volume is not as easy as it looks, I did make a drawing of the pellet in autoCAD but I am no expert so I'll be asking some computer wiz to help me find the volume which in turn will determine the strip thickness.

Another thing I've noticed on these RWS R10 pellets is that they have a matt surface, something that is very characteristic to sand blasting or beading, do you think they were beaded with some sort of abrasive (maybe titanium oxide?) to get rid of the flare?

I used to have a homebuilt stone tumbler that I think I can easily modify to test this idea on some Gamo pellets, I even have some titanium oxide and calcium oxide lying around.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: shorty on August 11, 2013, 12:41:41 PM
Stever, I had to make the sketch smaller to meet the 200kb attachment. I don't know how I could make it bigger. I'll try to explain the idea though and possibly walk through the process.
Wire on the spool is de-reeled by the pinch rollers (pinch roller is driven). The pinch rollers feed the wire into the first plate to help it guide it into the second plate (this is the cutting operation). The wire is fed into the second plate at a desired length (pellet length) then slides down cutting off the lead at a certain length and the pellet is now in the second plate unsecured. As the plate moves further down with the cut piece of lead in it, the plate stops at the next operation which would be the punch press/ejection operation. Once both ends of the pellets ends have been formed, the pellet is then ejected and the plate moves up again to reset the process.

David, The formula for the ribbon is this:

Round wire size = thickness X Width / 3.142, sqrt then X 2.

For example: .22 cal pellet has a .2219" skirt size, So we would want a ribbon that is at a minimum of .222" thick and approximately .3" wide (width depending on how wide our punch mold is - I used .3" just for an example ).

Round wire shall be: .2911". That's a good starting point. There would be elongation during the rolling process so round wire size may need to be slightly larger.

End result of ribbon size would be approximate thickness .222" X Width .3" using a .2911" round wire.

The jewelers mill is capable of rolling lead. The rolls are typically hardend steel but, they aren't that hard. I have ran copper and aluminum through them with no problems. Although ferrous alloys really destroy them.

At my place of work, I have almost all the resources to make the lead wire (or ribbon) except for the lead. I am definitely in if someone wants to discuss. I have also thought of using different alloys instead of lead (just because I have them available).

I was thinking about alloys like 40% copper steel core, or copper clad aluminum, or just plain copper. All of these alloys can be easily annealed to have great formability. Ofcourse they would be much lighter than lead, but they sure would compete with the light alloy pellets on the market.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 13, 2013, 04:28:09 PM
Made some progress, at least that's what I think. I tumbled some Gamo pellets with aluminum oxide and some water. They ended up having the same finish as the RWS R10 pellets, and it only took 10 minutes of tumbling, lead is softer than I thought.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: V12V12 on August 13, 2013, 07:49:11 PM
Hey great job on trying to tackle this issue of hobbyist making their OWN pellets vs the price gouging I've seen over years and years of watching the market. Esp those $.25cal pellets!

Often times ~70% price increase over .22. I know making these is not "easy," but it's not that "difficult" either vs some other forms of machining/engineering. $16 for a box of ~200-250 pellets, considering a "break in" for most AGis 500+ Seesh talk about an expensive hobby per gun. I do not see why it's been so long for this type of innovative thinking to be put in action by some hobbyist, thankfully we have folks such as yourself stepping up to such a monumental task! I too have many, many designs for pellets, but putting them into prototype/production has been/is always the weakest link; bridging the huge gap.

Good fortune to you, this is once again boosted my moral for the day when I can cast off the chains of overpriced pellets!!!... Nothing like seeing a box of $16, 200rnd .25cals vs a huge bin of .22cal rimfires selling for practically pennies per round. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread for sure!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: shorty on August 15, 2013, 05:14:29 PM
With all the complicated ideas of making machines to mass produce maybe there is an easier way for the home hobbyist.

Why can't we just make a 3 piece mold and melt the lead. My sketches aren't great but I can imagine just a 3 piece mold.

The bottom portion on the mold would be the pellet nose, the center mold would be an actual two piece mold ( have to be able to make a skirt ) , and the top mold would be the inside skirt.

I would guess the molds can be made from aluminum since the molten lead will not stick to it and the mold can be resistance heated to get to the temperature needed to melt the lead when a potential is put across the mold.

Then you would simply cut and weigh each piece of lead (cold), stick them in the center mold and assemble the complete mold. when assembled, you would pass a current through the mold to heat it and melt the lead. Stop the current and allow the part to cool and pop out the pellets
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on August 15, 2013, 09:15:39 PM
shorty what you're suggesting is too slow and time consuming even for the hobbyist with all the time in the world.

Plus melting lead won't give you the results you want, lead doesn't flow that well in these small tiny spaces, molding could be one step and has to be followed by swaging. So why not skip molding completely?

I am working on a hand held prototype that I think would be very nice for a hobbyist, there are springs and levers involved so it might be a bit tricky to make.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 16, 2013, 10:49:57 AM
Hey great job on trying to tackle this issue of hobbyist making their OWN pellets vs the price gouging I've seen over years and years of watching the market. Esp those $.25cal pellets!

Often times ~70% price increase over .22. I know making these is not "easy," but it's not that "difficult" either vs some other forms of machining/engineering. $16 for a box of ~200-250 pellets, considering a "break in" for most AGis 500+ Seesh talk about an expensive hobby per gun. I do not see why it's been so long for this type of innovative thinking to be put in action by some hobbyist, thankfully we have folks such as yourself stepping up to such a monumental task! I too have many, many designs for pellets, but putting them into prototype/production has been/is always the weakest link; bridging the huge gap.

Good fortune to you, this is once again boosted my moral for the day when I can cast off the chains of overpriced pellets!!!... Nothing like seeing a box of $16, 200rnd .25cals vs a huge bin of .22cal rimfires selling for practically pennies per round. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread for sure!

Thanks!

THAT comes down to what I refer to as "economy of scale"...if you can sell every pellet you can make...the ones you make MORE of will be overall cheaper to make, because you just keep the machine(s) running, if you make them cheaper you sell them cheaper, they are more popular so the distro's you sell to are willing to maybe place large blanket orders you can count on.

As you get to smaller and smaller qty the price goes up and up.

I have been involved in quoting some jobs and the 1,5,25,100 prices are often strikingly different, and then if you would look at 1m,10m,100m,1000m,10,000m qty things would look really different on the top end than the bottom.

The R&D on a new pellet, to make sure you have something that somebody or other will CHERISH once they buy some to try must be quite extensive.

I STILL think that using a lead shot you can buy in 25 lb bags would make a lot if sense, just reform it...I'd settle for an ash can (like the old sheriden 5mm) formed in even a cheap Lee reloading press with a simple die. $47 for 25 lbs, 17,000 to the bag for BBB chilled shot that weighs 10.14 grains.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Chilled-Lead-Shot-4-25-lbs/productinfo/030CL04/ (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Chilled-Lead-Shot-4-25-lbs/productinfo/030CL04/)

Overall it might be cheaper to get a barrel custom tailored to a more easily made pellet shape (or even a tiny conical bullet) than to try to duplicate even moderate quality pellets.

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: ericw on August 16, 2013, 01:32:25 PM
For what it is worth...  I found a 25.4 grain lead shot ball in with my JSB King .25 cal , 25.4 grain pellets.   I would guess that means
they use lead shot as the starting material with no lead lost in the forming process.  The machine in the video used the same thing.  Seems there must be a good reason for going through the process to make shot first. 
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 16, 2013, 01:45:10 PM
For what it is worth...  I found a 25.4 grain lead shot ball in with my JSB King .25 cal , 25.4 grain pellets.   I would guess that means
they use lead shot as the starting material with no lead lost in the forming process.  The machine in the video used the same thing.  Seems there must be a good reason for going through the process to make shot first.

The BC of the lead ball is higher too :-). My dad said when he was a kid there was a "bb" pistol somebody or other made but it was made to use a round lead ball about #6 shot size. I have never set down and weighed lead shot. I'm sure the weight would vary due to minor changes to contaminates in the alloy. Also not sure of they can drop chilled shot over a certain size or not..maybe the bigger shot is magnum shot because the alloy has more surface tension and makes rounder spheres ?? Or  is it due to demand for larger sizes is more for hard shot not chilled shot ?? I seem to recall the "swan" shot they talk about in the revolutionary war periods was cut from lead sheets, then rolled between two hard planes to form (sort of) spheres.

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: rsterne on August 16, 2013, 03:26:35 PM
BC of a lead ball is dependant on (and proportional to) the caliber.... For a .25 cal, it is 0.035, roughly the same or slightly less than the BC for a JSB King.... In .22 cal, the BC for a lead sphere is 0.030, which puts it about the same as a 15.9 gr. JSB Exact Jumbo and less than the 18.1 gr. Heavy....

Bob
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: HYspd on August 16, 2013, 05:39:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V01rDRaR2XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V01rDRaR2XI)

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V01rDRaR2XI)
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: willbird on August 17, 2013, 09:26:44 AM
BC of a lead ball is dependant on (and proportional to) the caliber.... For a .25 cal, it is 0.035, roughly the same or slightly less than the BC for a JSB King.... In .22 cal, the BC for a lead sphere is 0.030, which puts it about the same as a 15.9 gr. JSB Exact Jumbo and less than the 18.1 gr. Heavy....

Bob

Yea I realized later that day that I had typed something generally contrary to what some googling had shown me, smaller lead shot has a TERRIBLE BC when compared to many .177 pellets even. Maybe not terrible though, it does allow you to generate an energy level within a specific range without lobbing projectiles into the next county every shot :-).

Bill
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: SOCEY600 on October 25, 2013, 02:11:31 PM
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in here.
I have no idea whatsoever of how to make my
own pellets, but I do know that lead can be
very dangerous.
In addition to my airgun hobby, I like to fish.
There was a guy once, who made these big treble hooks that
had a very big piece of lead in the middle.
He would melt the lead and pour it.
The guy died of some type of cancer, maybe from
inhaling the lead fumes.  I'm not sure.
I think, even handling a lot of lead may be dangerous.
Just something to think about.
Good luck with your project.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: ericw on October 26, 2013, 02:25:58 AM
It sounds to me like there is some general paranoia here versus real information.  Some interesting reading on the boolit casting forum might help:  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121103-Lead-Fumes-let-s-settle-this (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121103-Lead-Fumes-let-s-settle-this)
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: HYspd on October 26, 2013, 07:28:07 PM
lead doesn't cause cancer...but enough of it will cause nerve damage
just wiki lead posioning
Title: Lead hazard is fairly low for adults
Post by: TimmyMac1 on October 27, 2013, 12:56:14 AM
There is a Modern Marvels Special on Lead on the History Channel. I highly suggest that episode to learn where lead comes from. It is one of the most facinating ones I ever watched. A few millions years ago it would not be good to hang around since lead is the inevitable byproduct(what's left) of completely dormant and decayed radioactive material. That is where it comes from. They will be able to crack open the San Onofre Concrete Hazardous waste barrels in a few more million years and make some bullets
Ironic it masks us from Radiation when we get X-rays. There really is no hazard to speak of unless you inhale the Particulates because you could eat it and poop out pellets for years and not get any elevated levels as long as you are not a Raptor. Their system tries to process 100% of what they eat and that is their problem with lead as that is a pretty nasty byproduct to try to digest.
I figure we are shooting the lead that came from the Big Bang when the Milky Way & the Universe we know was created a few million years ago and the planets started to cool.

TimmyMac1
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: deweytastic on January 08, 2014, 12:54:18 PM
Anything new happen with your pellet machine its been a while.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on January 12, 2014, 06:19:56 AM
The coast is too high and the results are not guaranteed, so no one is willing to invest in the project and I'm not getting the funds needed for the machine.
I have discarded the sheet and punch method for making the slugs and will go with what people have recommended; cutting slugs from a wire of specific thickness.
Will try to make a small prototype when I save enough for it.
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: TimmyMac1 on January 12, 2014, 10:43:23 AM
The pellet gun industry has a long history of Large investments for small gains. It is a lot like Horse breeding. If you win you are going to make ends meet and if you lose your going to wind up flushing a large chunk of cash.
I bet the farm I could make winning guns but I would not do the same on a chunk of Lead and the manufacturing process as that seems like a very slippery slope.
I'm certain I could design pellets as I have a track record having designed the Superdome in 1984 but learning the manufacturing process seems like a daunting task. It is an extraordinary challenge to have the design expertise and also the financial means to do such a project.
Means of manufacturing in an efficient fashion is truly the challenge and the firms who have taken on the challenge have huge investments in the machines needed to accomplish precision pellet manufacturing. Scott Pilkington of PCE (Pilkington Comp Equip) is the only guy I know of that ever gave it a try on American soil as a small guy trying to do big stuff. He is in Tenn and he picked a pretty terrible era to attempt such things but he did it. He also did the AR Upper design for Crosman so Scott has amazing expertise across a broad range.
He is like me In that he can do an awful lot with very limited resources because he is very focused on accomplishing American made Quality. He did match grade pellets and has machines similar to what H&N have if my info is correct. I'm not certain what situation he is in now but I will talk to him this week at the SHOT show and I will get an update on his predicament.\
I don't know of anyone who hasn't had to dig deep to weather the current Obamus Financial Storm but the challenge of American made and American innovated is a tall order for anyone but an extreme challenge for those with limited resources.
Making man toys for the last decade has been a act of passion and survival for both Scott & Myself and all I want to hear from my buddy is he has not given up and is keeping his head down. I know he has headwinds but he is one headstrong American and that is why I like the guy so much.
He told me once he could make pellets for people if they would do the design and pay for the tooling. He had the machine in place and it was a matter of scheduling machine time. I will find out if that is still an option now and what his limits are pellet length and caliber etc. I think he has only done .177 cal match pellets so far. I'll post on this thread after I talk to Scott P.

TimmyMac1
Title: Re: Pellet machine
Post by: David.Soliman on January 12, 2014, 11:11:13 AM
I did email Scott and discuss the machine design with him, he told me it is not very different from the ones he uses/makes. I guess there are many ways to skin a cat.

Oh he did promise me a video of the machine like a year ago, but I guess he forgot.