Rusty,The thing that is seldom discussed is that the gun is one component of the system. You also need to consider the scope, the pellet and the shooter.From the human side consider:This year's BR matches at Oxnard, Ca.were won by Jeff Carmelo, with a D54.At the FT Nationals, Matt Sawyer, with a short-stroked D54 that he had only had for less than a week placed 6th, just one point behind one of the most seasoned spring-piston shooters in the country.Ray Apelles placed 2nd in the New Zealand World's FT Matches.In advanced riflery it is just as important that the gun is shootable as it is that the gun is accurate.The most accurate rifle, unless it is very shootable will not allow you to perform your best. Since each person is different, you need to find which one works best for you.Do consider that taking shot after shot after shot that needs 45# of cocking force may or may not be your cup of tea. That is why we build the short-stroked D54From the scientific POV, remember that pellets perform their best when shot at around 800 fps. If you are really set on the 0.22" cal. you will need to think of a rifle that can consistently and reliably develop af least 18 ft-lbs.This automatically rules out some rifles.International FT shooters shoot at targets out to 55 yards, our rifles can routinely print groups in the 1/2" to 3/4" c-c at 55 yards, and they are all 0.177" cal rifles shooting 7.9 or 8.4 pellets.Yet, in the field, targets that are way bigger routinely get missed.Practical, first shot hits demand more than just an accurate rifle.Keep us posted of your progress.HM
Thank you for the additional information. I certainly understand that the rifle is only one component and that likely all of the rifles mentioned are more capable than I am. I've enjoyed shooting sports all of my life but it has been many years since I shot in an organized event. As a child I shot at at a state event in Oregon and then was fortunate enough to qualify for a national event held in Bowling Green, KY in 1980. This was through a JayCee airgun program in which we used club guns. It's been so long ago that I don't recall the models we used. Reminiscing about those times was in part what sparked my recent interest in getting back into modern airguns. I don't specifically have a desire to compete, but I would never rule it out entirely as a hobby.I also understand what you mean by shootability, and that is part of what leads me to looking at a springer. As much as I like the idea of PCP guns, the novelty of pumping soon wore off and the investment is support equipment, well I'm just not ready to step off that cliff yet. With that said, I don't really have any way to judge the force required to cock a sidelever as you stated, but from watching videos it appears doable. The other thing you mentioned is finding the right rifle that works for each person. This is probably the most difficult because unlike with a centerfire purchase I can't find a retailer where I can just walk in and shoulder one. So I am left to watching youtube videos and asking questions here. That's ok, it's just the way it is. My reasoning for wanting .22 is that I feel it would just be easier for my aging hands to handle and I shoot in an area that is typically going to have some wind. I was not aware about optimum velocities. This is all new to me but I am guessing that the 18 ftlb number is calculated from a specific pellet weight at a given velocity and that as one increases the other must decrease if the energy is to remain constant. I certainly would like to learn more about this. I'm not completely opposed to going with a .177 cal gun if that makes more sense. It truly helps to hear both the positives and negatives and certainly learn about the limitations of each gun. At this point I'm leaning towards a Diana 48/52 or 54. I don't know that I'm up to the task of modifying the gun myself if needed, but I'm certainly capable of learning and have been searching for articles to read. There is a lot to filter through so anything pertinent would be appreciated. I'm just kind of holding right now, reading a lot and waiting for the right deal to come along. Thanks again for all of the responses and to everyone for participating in this thread.
Mr. Medina,I have always read that non wadcutter pellets are most accurate at around 900 fps because of the turbulence close to the sound barrier. Could you point me to the testing and conclusions where 800 fps was most accurate?I have also read that wadcutters perform their best around 600 fps at short range.I am in no way disputing your claims. As I am a newbie and still learning. I would just like to read, if available online, the testing and results to support pellets perform their best at 800 fps if you have the weblinks.I am also curious to see Bob Sterne's findings at testing long range results around the speed of sound with LabRadar.Thank you in advance,Taso
Hello Rusty!I assume that by "Oly WA" you mean Olympia, Washington State.If that is so, then the nearest serious airgunners on the US side are near Eugene, OR; 6 hours drive away. On the Canadian side they are in Mission, BC, near Vancouver; 4 hours drive.I am sure there are other airgunners in the area, but I cannot direct you to them. Posting a request in the general AirGun gate is a really brilliant idea.I don't know how much you know about Field Target. To me it is the ACME of the shooting sports, and I have shot everything that can be shot from the shoulder, from tiny 0.10" and 0.12"s to 20 mm's Oerlikons. There is NO other shooting sport that requires you to hit targets at unknown ranges out to 55 yards with a meager maximum of 12 ft-lbs. muzzle energy. And then do it 100-120 times over two days or 150 times over three days. A truly demanding sport form the physical and mental sides.I do realize that FT is not for everyone, and Smaug brings out a good point when he writes about a "laid back" shooting session just to enjoy the pellet flight.Pellets are peculiar beasties. They have a horrible BC, but they are reasonably stable. As long as you do not drive them TOO hard, they are surprisingly accurate. Of course, that stability is paid in the blood of an extremely low BC, so ranges need to be short.55 yards on targets of around 1.5" is very doable, specially from the bench and at known ranges. 50 meter BR uses a 10 that is about 11 mm's in diameter, the X is less than 1 mm in diameter. Very few people shoot 50 meter (55 yards) BR with airguns.Within those two limits, it is YOUR decision what is "accurate" or "Very Accurate".For years, the best BC was that of the JSB Exact Jumbo (0.22" / 15.9 grs) with a BC of 0.025, but since a few years manufacturers have started making pellets that are heavier, longer and with a better BC. And also the shapes and weight distributions of the pellets have changed over the years and newer pellets of the exact same model and weight have better BC's than older versions of the same product.Now, the REAL problem in the BC of the pellets is that it is not constant. It goes from bad at low velocities, to worse at high velocities to absolutely evil above 975 fps. It is just a function of what forces are the stabilizing ones and which are the de-stabilizing forces as wind speed goes up.So, you can now get 0.177"/ 7.9 grs. pellets that when driven a little above 800 fps return BC's of 0.02x, which was unheard of up to a few years ago.That is why I have maintained that sticking to the 0.22" cal pellet is the biggest restriction in your spec.But if the problem is the handling of the pellets, then no BC matters enough. Go with whatever it takes to keep you shooting.The 18 ft-lbs I mentioned was a quick number based on a slightly under 14grs pellet (many Crosman's, at least three JSB's and some H&N's) driven at 750 fps. If you want more MV, then you CAN have it, all the way to about 850 fps in the larger rifles, but then the cocking force will go up commensurately.If you go up in mass (let's say 16 grs.), then the smaller engines (AA's and HW's) will only produce about 600 fps. And wind WILL be a challenge at those MV's regardless of the pellet or caliber chosen.If you want to read a little, read this:http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-wide-and-wonderful-range-of-a-short-stroked-d-54 It tells you what can be done with a good engine and some ingenuity. These are the most efficient spring-piston guns. They will return up to 16 ft-lbs of muzzle energy for around 22# of cocking force.But, they are 0.177" cal.Would I recommend anyone tackling this conversion? Nope. I am a professional gunsmith and I have been doing this for many years, it is simple, but neither easy, nor cheap to get it right.So, take your time and analyze and filter everything you read.Keep us posted.HM
Mr. Medina,Thank you for explaining that! Real world experience is favorable to modeling. I also found another of your explanations here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=105148.0 in reply 17I had never considered the waist of the pellet could blow out and change the bc. Taso
One gun I keep looking at in my searches is the Diana 34 Compact. What could I expect from it? I realize it is only available in .177
I would agree; 70 yards was not a statement I made about the 56th, but a youtuber who has one in .177 discussing what he thought effective range was. I would think it a 50 yard gun myself. 60 yards, to me, is pushing it a .22 round.
Quote from: taso1000 on October 19, 2016, 03:50:53 PMMr. Medina,Thank you for explaining that! Real world experience is favorable to modeling. I also found another of your explanations here: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=105148.0 in reply 17I had never considered the waist of the pellet could blow out and change the bc. TasoTaso,That is a great thread as well, and as you pointed out there is a ton of information in HM's post 17. Thank you for sharing that.
Thanks again for more details. It's given me more to consider. Yes, I live just south of Olympia. I don't know anything about Field Target, but I do have family in the Eugene area and while we don't travel there often, I'm always looking for a reason to hook up the RV and an excuse for a road trip. I will research more about it and that is possibly something to look into for the future. As I consider and reconsider all of the options available I realize now that some of my goals may not be as realistic as I had thought and as Smaug had pointed out one of the things I really am looking for is a "laid back" backyard experience. After watching many videos I now realize the sheer weight of some of these options may not be in my best interest from a "fun factor" standpoint. One of the things I have always enjoyed with shooting sports is just being able to sit around with a couple of friends and plink, whatever the target may be. My quest for an accurate rifle stems from my competitive spirit and if I miss I want to know it was me and not the gun. As a handloader I have always enjoyed the mathematical side of ballistics and the quest for the most accurate load. I enjoy collecting data and trying to make reasonable predictions about what will happen if I make a specific change. That's just a little about myself and where I am coming from. However, as I look back at what I originally posted, fun and shootability for this particular gun trumps some of the other goals. One of the things I could give up easily is range, the number I threw out was somewhat arbitrary and obviously also one of the hardest to accommodate. I haven't ruled out .177 cal. and that may be the direction I need to look. While I did state that the majority of my shooting would be done off of a bench, I did not mean to imply that I would never want to shoot offhand and so I have really started to look at the weight of some of these guns. Again, thank you for all the information and taking the time to participate in this thread. It has opened my eyes and given me lots of ideas.One gun I keep looking at in my searches is the Diana 34 Compact. What could I expect from it? I realize it is only available in .177
Maybe a gunsmith/incredible shooter like HM could do outdoor laser first shots at 70, but I would call it's effective outdoor range 60 yards on a decent day.
Sometimes you just have to see where your first pellet hits.