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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 01:46:43 PM

Title: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 01:46:43 PM
I am DONE with listening to the German gun hype. My experience with German guns has gone from bad to worse over the course of owning an RWS 350, RWS 48, and now an RWS 54, purchased last week from airgundaily.com

) http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00 (http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00) (

I was excited with the purchase, and then the package arrived. As I opened it I didn't have much time to enjoy what I purchased. The bluing is rusting. The breach piston is damaged. The stock has two minor dings and that is acceptable. The date on the receiver is 04/06. RUST???! With all I hear about German manufacture the only two guns I have ever seen with rust are RWS guns! Give me a Chinese rifle ANY DAY! Or Spanish or Turkish or Mexican or Eskimo. German quality? Bull.

I am pretty ticked right now. Ticked I ever bought the hogwash about the quality of German manufacture in the slightest. Ticked I bought a refurb that adds insult to injury with my German gun experience. RUST??!

So much for German quality. I'll stick to the Chinese guns as they don't rust.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: run and gun on December 06, 2010, 01:54:56 PM
refurbished what was refurbished? unless i can see the gun before i buy it i just don't know what I'm getting.I'm so sorry is there any way you can send it back?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: bill/sjca on December 06, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
sounds like a vendor issue to me. can't holdrws 100% for what happens after they leave the factory.  now if something was designed or machined poorly. have sevral rws guns except for a wood stock on my 350 damaged durring a move they are flawless after 30 years of sitting around.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: crowpopper on December 06, 2010, 02:02:37 PM
well ive had 3 rws's all have been superb
2  rws 48's
1 850  the blueing on the 48's were very nice, the only complaint i hade with either gun was they are dry and need some lubing inside
accuracy was superb with my old 48 and the new one is getting 3/4 in gps at 50
id personally go back to the supplier you purchased from as they are obviously the reason for the rusting which is &^^&.
wood grain was ok but it was a 48 and not a 52 so that was expected.
all my guns were "R"  guns also
id call up and complain

Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 02:04:42 PM
the receiver is pocked and rusted from one end to the other. if i left a chinese gun out in the rain for 4 years this wouldn't happen.

ps - holding the phone as i type... seems no one answers at airgunsdaily.com
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Cheap Shot on December 06, 2010, 02:21:22 PM
the receiver is pocked and rusted from one end to the other. if i left a chinese gun out in the rain for 4 years this wouldn't happen.

ps - holding the phone as i type... seems no one answers at airgunsdaily.com

I'm pretty sure that if you chip and scratch the blueing first, don't oil it, and let it get wet, most any gun will rust.

I would not expect a rusty gun to be sold as "refurbished" (whatever that means in the AG world).

Good luck on getting a fair resolution.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: uncle paulie on December 06, 2010, 02:30:16 PM
I think that when something is sold as refurbished, that it is coming direct from the FACTORY and that it has been completely gone over and in the case of AG's, there should be nothing wrong with it beyond some minor dings or scratches in the stock, and perhaps a bit of wear on the bluing. Rust is something that would be taken care of and perhaps it should have been re-blued even if cold blued just to stop the rust. I think it is a sign of the times that it is apparently becoming too tempting  for manufacturers to simply sell off their defective merchandise to the highest bidder. The buyer then is responsible for the repairs and reselling the goods. But they take the easy route and do whatever they can minimally do to "fix" the product and they market them as factory re-manufactured. Sure they came from the factory originally, but its not even close to what you think you are buying. I've always been very apprehensive about buying anything remanufactured, unless I can see it first and it comes with the same factory warranty the NIB ones have. I haven't checked out AGD to what their policy is, but I would be very disappointed were I to order one of these and receive something which was 4 years old. Thats not remanufactured, that's old and used!  
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Jay on December 06, 2010, 02:54:41 PM
I hope  they answered for ya Richard(you have not posted in 1/2hr). They seem to be a good dealer an I would say they will replace it for you. I had the pleasure of shooting a friend's "Refurbed" 54 an really saw nothing wrong on it,looked brand new really(had too look for the R's even)?? WoW I guess when you go for one of these deal's it's a roll of the dice. Not sure who he got it from?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 02:59:57 PM
no one is answering the phone. ticks me off that they'd even send something out looking like this...

Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Jay on December 06, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
I agree whole heartedly Bro., a lite rust by accident like finger print left on or a moisture coat during shipping would be bad enough but if it has pocking already it's not newly formed rust.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Nathan on December 06, 2010, 03:22:53 PM
All the problems you are describing have NOTHING to do with the Country of manufacture and it’s therefore assumed quality or lack thereof. You received a gun in poor condition, and regardless of where it’s made, NO DEALER should have sent it out like that, refurbished or not.  You state that the gun was made in 04/06; well that’s almost 5 years ago. How long did the customer own it before it was sent back and allegedly refurbished? Has it been sitting a non controlled environment all this time? Sounds like it to me.  I understand you frustration, but your beef is with Airguns Daily, not RWS. I will bet money that rifle did not leave the assembly line in Rastatt in the condition you describe.  

Nathan
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 03:32:37 PM
Like I said, 3 RWS guns I have had. 3 guns with manufacturing issues. I've had some 20 other guns... and still have about 16. Some of them are close to 20 years old. NONE of them have rust. I have a bunch of Chinese guns that people who push German guns put down... I've never has a disappointment like this with another gun. German guns... Phui.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Nathan on December 06, 2010, 03:55:32 PM
It's too bad that your experiences have soured you to RWS guns.  If you had bought that rifle from a private seller off a classified, would you still blame RWS for the rust (not the actual, alleged or perceived manufacturing issues)? Well it’s you money and you buy what you like and are happy with. I honestly do hope you get this incident resolved to your satisfaction.  I believe that you were shipped a substandard gun and Airguns Daily should make things right.

Nathan
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: oldpink on December 06, 2010, 05:02:28 PM
Seriously, it doesn't sound like an RWS thing.
It sound more like RWS refurbished them, then AGD got hold of them and improperly stored them or left them on the shelf an excessive amount of time.
There are just too many good things said about RWS's craftsmanship here and elsewhere for this to be something they did.
I point the finger at AGD, at least until you learn otherwise.
You are certainly entitled to a return for a refurb in decent condition.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: a1Bogey on December 06, 2010, 05:03:07 PM
Your disappointment is understandable.   However,  the distributor may have a good deal of responsibilty for the poor condition of the RWS you recieved.  Can you send it back?   If so , do so.    No reason to keep something you are unhappy with.

Best of Luck.   Hope you get some satisfaction.

Bogey
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: ezman604 on December 06, 2010, 05:09:11 PM
Scott is a member here and says he will always treat us right. Give him a chance Richard, I'm sure he'll make it right.
Not sure about the phone deal but drop him an email too.
[email protected]

Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
 8)
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: gene_sc on December 06, 2010, 05:15:27 PM
I am DONE with listening to the German gun hype. My experience with German guns has gone from bad to worse over the course of owning an RWS 350, RWS 48, and now an RWS 54, purchased last week from airgundaily.com

) http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00 (http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00) (

I was excited with the purchase, and then the package arrived. As I opened it I didn't have much time to enjoy what I purchased. The bluing is rusting. The breach piston is damaged. The stock has two minor dings and that is acceptable. The date on the receiver is 04/06. RUST???! With all I hear about German manufacture the only two guns I have ever seen with rust are RWS guns! Give me a Chinese rifle ANY DAY! Or Spanish or Turkish or Mexican or Eskimo. German quality? Bull.

I am pretty ticked right now. Ticked I ever bought the hogwash about the quality of German manufacture in the slightest. Ticked I bought a refurb that adds insult to injury with my German gun experience. RUST??!

So much for German quality. I'll stick to the Chinese guns as they don't rust.
I have some news for you...:) There are only a few pro tuners that can tune the RWS 54 properly. Personally I would never buy an RWS 54 used nor refurbished.

If someone has taken it appart and did a so called lube tune on it then it most likely will never shoot right again.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: CharlieDaTuna on December 06, 2010, 05:36:11 PM
It doesn't sound like a manufacturing issue to me either. A lot can happen to a gun in 4.5 years. You can bet that it didn't come off the line like that 4 and a half years ago. Their QC standards where a lot higher back then they are today and are still today pretty high. And keep in mind, it was probably not refurbed in Germany... it was likely done here in the US.  ::)

Now the distributor and dealer.... that is another thing. It perhaps should have never gotten through....but... I doubt that they would inspect every refurb if any. They would probably never know why it was sent back to begin with and wouldn't know what to look for.  ??? ??? That said, I suppose refurbs should all at least be test fired and just a quick look over.

Hey Paul..... about those BMW German cars.  I bought my wife a new Beemer not long ago ...a  Z-4 made in Germany and it's a fantastic car and one heck of a roadster. In my opinion, one of the best cars made today those BMW's. We have a BMW plant about 15 miles from where I live and took a tour through it. Amazing... ;)
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: gene_sc on December 06, 2010, 05:36:46 PM
Scott is a member here and says he will always treat us right. Give him a chance Richard, I'm sure he'll make it right.
Not sure about the phone deal but drop him an email too.
[email protected]

Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
 8)


Dez is right. Scott only sells them and does not refurbish them. All refurbished RWS guns come fro Umarex. One place I would personally never buy a refurb gun from.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- Customer "care"
Post by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 05:56:36 PM
Here is a message I got from airgundepot...

---

Hi,

Per our website, our return policy is we do not accept any returns and all sales are final.  AirGunsDaily deeply discounts the price on guns and in so doing can not take back returns. Furthermore, cosmetic defects are never covered under warranty. 

I am sorry for the trouble but there is nothing we can do for you.


Best Regards,

Matt
Customer Care

Airgundepot.com
tacticalair.com
airgunsdaily.com
armoryofreplicas.com

---

In other words, here is your SH%^$#T gun, you are screwed.

I hope this is a warning to anyone considering refurbs from airgundepot. If I get no satisfaction, I will have to make a stink on BOI and our own vendor area.

Here are some pictures so you don't all think I'm nutty...
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Jonesin on December 06, 2010, 06:13:13 PM
I would be upset at that type of condition myself, sight unseen. I have gotten a refurb from AGD (Walther) and it was in like-new condition except for the "r" stamped everywhere.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: GatorGunner on December 06, 2010, 07:38:22 PM
All the problems you are describing have NOTHING to do with the Country of manufacture and it’s therefore assumed quality or lack thereof. You received a gun in poor condition, and regardless of where it’s made, NO DEALER should have sent it out like that, refurbished or not.  You state that the gun was made in 04/06; well that’s almost 5 years ago. How long did the customer own it before it was sent back and allegedly refurbished? Has it been sitting a non controlled environment all this time? Sounds like it to me.  I understand you frustration, but your beef is with Airguns Daily, not RWS. I will bet money that rifle did not leave the assembly line in Rastatt in the condition you describe. 

Nathan

What Nathan said, 

Larry
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Tdubya on December 06, 2010, 07:55:14 PM
My airgunsdaily RWS 850 .22 refurb purchased late last summer had some rust on the underside of the barrel.  The gun still performed great, so I kept it. But it was irritating. These guns were probably sent back by the orginal purchaser and thrown into the "refurb" pile. Or Umarex had/has a leaky roof  and just sells the damaged guns as refurbs... :P
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 06, 2010, 07:57:30 PM
Larry, well, but airgunsdaily sent the message I posted here which really says: tough luck.


MEANWHILE: I have gotten a reply from Scott. I forwarded the message I got from his customer support along with the pictures. ALSO, I got in touch with UMAREX customer support and sent THEM the pictures... The support person there was very helpful, but he said he needed to show them to his supervisor and discuss -- at this point not promising anything. Scott said he'd take care of me... so one way or the other it looks like I may get a positive resolution.

I don't know how I got it and I don't know why it came in this condition, but I know I didn't do anything to deserve it but trust that a gun would show up in decent condition -- assuming the manufacturer is responsible for doling out the refurbs. I guess something odd could have happened -- a swap on a return, perhaps, who knows -- but someone, somewhere along the line should be checking this stuff.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: patton1 on December 06, 2010, 08:14:29 PM
That's nasty!!!  I'm sure you'll get it resolved.

Almost forgot, that looks like it may have been a display model somewhere.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: robertsapp on December 06, 2010, 10:24:56 PM
I was in Bass Pro Shop and saw a RWS 48 that was a display model on clearance which looked like that and was $399.  Are they crazy!
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: gene_sc on December 06, 2010, 10:29:53 PM
I know for a fact from folks who have bought refurb air guns in the past that is was a hit and miss deal. But Umarex had no busieness boxing that gun up and selling it to Airguns Daily. Most venders do not take refurbs out of box to visually inspect them prior to shipping.

Hope you get this resolved John. Shame on Umarex..... Take my advice from previous post and do not buy a used or refurb RWS 54.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Daysailer on December 06, 2010, 10:51:39 PM
Good advice from Gene_sc and others


Sure hope FWB and Weihrauch will be ok.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Onebaddj on December 07, 2010, 09:07:33 AM
Dude you bought a 4+ year old refurbished gun. It could have been refurbished in 06 then sitting in a storage bin in the back yard for all you know. I wouldnt blame RWS for that one. Id be pist too If I ordered a gun that came in like that but not at the manufacturer but at the distrubutor. They obviously have no QA control either to let it leave their store in that condition. And that email they sent you, holy &^^&, thats nuts. Airgun depot is off my list. Thats just wet poor customer service and leads me to believe they are just in it to ship quantities of airguns and not worried about the long haul. 
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 07, 2010, 10:34:21 AM
I know what I got, but I don't think it is what I ordered. Frankly, I would have thought a refurb would be 2 years old, max. What should they be doing taking back a gun older than that? But the RWS models have the date stamped right on the receiver. I found out that way, not by putting in a bid on a 5 year-old gun.

I guess my point is that I have plenty of guns that are more than 5 years old...some came to me quite abused. NONE of them look like this one. I am not translating all I hear about the quality of german guns into my experience with the german guns I've had.

After emailing with Scott, I would bet they are going to review their service procedure. It is true there is a no return policy on the airgundaily items, but the ad doesn't say "crappy looking and rusty..." One might more-or-less assume the gun will be acceptable.

We'll see what happens today.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: GatorGunner on December 07, 2010, 08:55:57 PM
Hey Gene,

I thought you moved this thread to the "non-productive gate"?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 07, 2010, 09:42:58 PM
Gator, I've seen less productive things here... Anything you are looking to hide?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: JMJ in NC on December 07, 2010, 09:57:17 PM
The refurbished Walther I bought from AGD had a bit of very light rust but was in otherwise new condition. The scope was defective but I contacted Umarex and they sent me a brand new one, no charge even though I too purchased my AG with no warranty. I've heard that other buyers of the Walther were not as lucky. Depends what your expectations are. I think AGD needs to be a bit more descriptive in what the put up for sale, as "refurbished" covers a lot of ground.

Hope it works out.

JMJ
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: flyer on December 07, 2010, 10:28:09 PM
          After reading carefully all the previous posts I undestand that your problem has to do with the shop who sold you this "refurbished" air rifle - it is useless to try put the blame on the factory that manufactured it almost 5 years ago in another continent. You can strongly believe that if it makes you feel better but there is nothing that can prove it. Everything has to do with the so called "refurbishment" of the rifle - did you have any information about it before buying the gun? I find it very hard to believe that the whole procedure took place in the factory that produced it - unless it was tuned by a well known and respected firm (in both cases it would raise its price - not lower it) the only possible assumption is that it never enjoyed the care it deserved. Again that has nothing to do with the German factory. Once upon a time they manufactured this rifle, checked and inspected it thoroughly and then gave it to the public. After all these years it came into your hands looking like this - who is to blame then?
       Looking at the ad you saw an atractive deal: a top of the range recoiless air rifle in a low price - and here lies the problem. Such "bargains" or "opportunities" happen once in 100 times (or less) - if you had the possibility to actually check the rifle yourself this would never happen. Rust is something you see in the exterior surface - are you sure that the inner parts are 100% OK and working properly insuring you about safe and trouble-free operation? There might be more serious issues here than just the appearance. I hope you can make something good out of all this and finally resolve your problem.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: coopieclan on December 07, 2010, 10:31:19 PM
That gun is OLD
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Alan on December 07, 2010, 11:10:07 PM
Cosmetics aside, how does the 54 shoot?

Personally, at that price...
If I knew the internals were sound, and the rifle only had external cosmetic issues, I would be a happy camper.
I would send it to shadow for a full-cover killer camo & tune job.   ;D
But that's me, I'm into function, not fashion.

Glad you like your Titan.    8)
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Pete on December 07, 2010, 11:21:15 PM
I am DONE with listening to the German gun hype. My experience with German guns has gone from bad to worse over the course of owning an RWS 350, RWS 48, and now an RWS 54, purchased last week from airgundaily.com

) http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00 (http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00) (

I was excited with the purchase, and then the package arrived. As I opened it I didn't have much time to enjoy what I purchased. The bluing is rusting. The breach piston is damaged. The stock has two minor dings and that is acceptable. The date on the receiver is 04/06. RUST???! With all I hear about German manufacture the only two guns I have ever seen with rust are RWS guns! Give me a Chinese rifle ANY DAY! Or Spanish or Turkish or Mexican or Eskimo. German quality? Bull.

I am pretty ticked right now. Ticked I ever bought the hogwash about the quality of German manufacture in the slightest. Ticked I bought a refurb that adds insult to injury with my German gun experience. RUST??!

So much for German quality. I'll stick to the Chinese guns as they don't rust.

Its a refurb..
bet it didn't leave the factory with...
rust on the blue...
damaged breach..
dings in the stock...

yer just got a bad refurb...
guess its luck of the draw in some ways with
the refurbs..
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 08, 2010, 04:24:35 AM
There are excuses being made for RWS (Gene's feedback excepted). I'd never get away with these same excuses if I were defending a Chinese rifle/company. The big dings to Chinese product is that the quality control stinks. That they don't last. They are not as powerful. They are not as accurate. I have shot them side-by-side in testing to be sure I know what I am talking about. I bought a new RWS 350 just to test against the TF89 (old forum - http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php/topic,21583.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php/topic,21583.0.html)). It costs more to make a gun in Germany. I don't doubt I got a clunker, but there is nothing in the three RWS guns I've had (not counting the RWS94/Cometa Fusion, which was made in Spain) that justifies the price by comparison with other rifles.

As Gene said, maybe I need an HW97 or R9. But are those even made in Germany now?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: yote300wsm on December 08, 2010, 05:04:20 AM
Buy a Refurb? Not in this lifetime!! If I can't see and handle it, No Deal!! There is No way I am going to put my hard earned cash on anything sight un-seen that says "Refurbished".(private sales excluded. They usually have pics.) IMHO.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: GatorGunner on December 08, 2010, 07:06:47 AM
Gator, I've seen less productive things here... Anything you are looking to hide?

Yes, my three Chinese guns  ;D.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on December 08, 2010, 09:13:22 AM
I would not have the opportunity to sample a lot of what I have if I had to put my hands on each one. Or do you just mean refurbs? I have another Walther that is just fine. I just got a Crosman Titan that is a refurb and it is fine. As far as private sales... Ever stop to think people might be buying refurbs and reselling? The two I got in the past week didn't even have an R stamped on them anywhere.

And Gator, it's probably comments like that that are the reason I carry on the discussion. I can't condemn German guns (even though I've had 3-out-of-3 bad experiences), but everyone who wants can condemn the Chinese made stuff... But which guns do you have, and what's wrong with them? Maybe you'll trade for something I have?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: GatorGunner on December 08, 2010, 10:11:45 PM
Richard, I challenge you to find a single post I have made that bashes Chinese guns in any way.  Go ahead, just do a simple search on my posts and review them all.  It's not rocket science.

Secondly, at what time did I say that RWS guns were the best guns made, or for that matter, the best German guns made?  The HW97K is par with the TX200 family of which I have a MKIII.  RWS guns are certainly not in the same league with these two guns as far is fit, finish, and more subjectively, accuracy are concerned. 

I do believe that the M34 is a great value in a break barrel rifle.  I'm not alone in that boat. 

You seem to infer that I think something is wrong with my three Chinese guns.  Never said that.  I simply don't find them worthy of posting about.  They are run of the mill Shanghai airguns.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Fair shooters, but not on the same level as my RWS 48 or my TX200 MkIII.  Most everyone will tell you that accuracy with a Chinese gun is a bit of a grab bag.  Sometimes you happen to get a good one.  And believe it or not, they do rust.  I bought them because they were cheap and a great starting place for tuning an airgun.  I replaced the trigger on one with a Tuna Trigger.  Made it a better shooter, but still not a great airgun.

I broke one down, deburred all stamped parts, polished the inlead, lube tuned it, cleaned the barrel, reworked the crown, etc.  Still an average Chinese airgun.  I never bought it thinking I could make a great airgun out of it, I bought it to learn how to tune an airgun and it has served that purpose well.  I have shot one of the other two a few times and the third is still in the box.  I will probably give it as a gift to someone later on. 

Meanwhile, I have a new M34 Classic being delivered Friday.  That genuinely excites me cause "I love dem German guns."

Larry
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Jack on February 16, 2011, 10:26:40 PM
You have GOT to be kidding me.  Those pics are disgusting.

Richard - I feel for you and if that happened to me I would be beside myself.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on February 16, 2011, 10:49:32 PM
Jack, yessir, they were (disgusting pictures). A load of frustration later, Scott at the same place took care of me and I ended up with what should have been in the first place. But like you intimate, I am surprised ANYONE is sticking up for the vendor. in no way can I fault Scott who made himself nutz fixing the issue, but the people who are accepting returns and failing to track inventory should have their pink-slips handed to them.

Next time I sell the junk to Gator for twice what it is worth... And Gator, you've been so far in the muck over the Chinese... do I have to show you the dirt on your shoes? You sound like the kid with the poopie diaper who decided to deny it.

Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: tpw on February 16, 2011, 10:56:28 PM
save your money and get and english gun
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: tpw on February 16, 2011, 11:10:00 PM
you should have investigated it atot better before you hit the pay button. i do feel they should look at the guns before they ship before they ship. try to talk to the owner on the company. i think you got screwed on this and their customer service not worthy.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: RedFeather on February 17, 2011, 12:08:32 AM
If anyone needs to get their 54 tuned, try John in PA.  Lots of praise for his work, on 54's and many other springers.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Atchman2 on February 17, 2011, 12:08:57 AM
Richard sorry for your bad experience :(  As you know I have LOTS of Chinese guns!  :)  Some of them are really good, some not so good (like my .177 TF 99-but it is getting better).

I do have to say though that the RWS 54 I bought is so accurate and easy to shoot it almost isn't fun. I mean you point it at something and it is hit.  Mine is almost laser accurate.  I started shooting it and I had to MAKE myself shoot the other guns. :) 

Now I have some tuned Chinese guns that are deadly accurate.  In fact I do most of my hunting with my Chinese guns because if I ding them up I'm not out anything.  My TF 89 is the best hunting airgun I own!  The Jet, after some tuning and TLC, is deadly accurate and VERY powerful.  My TF 87 can easily take squirrels out to 40 yards.  Just some incredible hunting guns. 

If I had to have an accuracy contest though, while the difference is slight, I'd still pick that RWS 54 before I'd chose anything else. It is simply that good.  Once you get your issues resolved and maybe get a better one, I think (and hope) you'll find that I'm correct.   ;)
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Atchman2 on February 17, 2011, 12:11:06 AM
If anyone needs to get their 54 tuned, try John in PA.  Lots of praise for his work, on 54's and many other springers.

I spoke with Shadow one day about the RWS 54. He told me that they are very hard to work on!  The washers(?) have to be put back in a certain way or it won't ever shoot correctly.  We talked a long time about the 54s.  I guess when he was getting trained on tuning he was around when one was being tuned. 
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: gene_sc on February 17, 2011, 01:32:52 AM
I am DONE with listening to the German gun hype. My experience with German guns has gone from bad to worse over the course of owning an RWS 350, RWS 48, and now an RWS 54, purchased last week from airgundaily.com

) http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00 (http://1dayonly.com/airgun-daily-rws-model-54-22-refurbished-349-99-reg-745-00) (

I was excited with the purchase, and then the package arrived. As I opened it I didn't have much time to enjoy what I purchased. The bluing is rusting. The breach piston is damaged. The stock has two minor dings and that is acceptable. The date on the receiver is 04/06. RUST???! With all I hear about German manufacture the only two guns I have ever seen with rust are RWS guns! Give me a Chinese rifle ANY DAY! Or Spanish or Turkish or Mexican or Eskimo. German quality? Bull.

I am pretty ticked right now. Ticked I ever bought the hogwash about the quality of German manufacture in the slightest. Ticked I bought a refurb that adds insult to injury with my German gun experience. RUST??!

So much for German quality. I'll stick to the Chinese guns as they don't rust.

One BIG thing to remember when purchasing a refurbed German Gun. Many go through the hands of Umarex and I have seen some pretty bad stuff come out of them.

Another thing to be carefull of is buying and used or refurb RWS 54. Gromet and washer spacing is very critical. If you get one that has been appart and someone who does not know what they are doing can mix up spacers and gromets. And the gun will never be right until a competent tuners fix's it. RWS 54 is one of the best big boy German made guns but if not right they get a bad rap.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: lucky me on February 17, 2011, 08:01:10 PM
YOU BOUGHT THE WRONG GERMAN AIR GUNS. BUY BEEMAN HW AND FORGET THE REST. 30 YEARS OF BEEMAN'S AND NEVER HAD TO SEND ONE BACK. STILL HAVE R1 LAZER I BOUGHT IN DECEMBER 1987 20 CAL. AND IT IS STILL A DEADLY WEAPON.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on February 17, 2011, 10:11:35 PM
Someone brought this thread back to life... I have since -- on recommendation -- bought a HW97k which is a nice gun. I also bought a RWS 54 which I think is a great gun, a BAM 40 which is a very nice gun, and a BS4 which I think is AWESOME for many reasons very different than what I might like other guns for.

The seller (Owner Scott at venturiair) did take care of the issue -- which they acknowledged. DO NOT ever expect that your refurb or remanufactured gun will be of lesser quality. By design that is not true. manufacturers either have to use the returned guns as parts, or try to resell at a lesser price. You pay for the opportunity to get a discount on items that are not saleable as 'new'. These guns are NOT a risk and they are NOT cruddy (was an s-swear, but it is a family forum...).

This gun was mishandled. Likely it was taken as a return, came in unchecked, and was sent out unchecked again as fulfillment of a refurb order. But what if the person returning the gun were returning an old one to get a newer one? Upgrading at the cost of the company? I think the owner/seller would never have this happen. I think no company would want it to. On the other hand, I think the minions might both not know what to look for and might have the easy job of accepting something without bothering to evaluate it.

But more, I think defending the result is irresponsible in that it suggests vendors are allowed to give you junk -- that is not a philosophy I will ascribe to as a buyer OR as a seller. Saying it is OK to sell awful, tarnished, guns as new or refurb is nothing we would expect from each other in the airgun community, let alone from a manufacturer or seller. let's NOT be complacent about what we expect... or else none of us will get the guns we should. Confidence in a product and a vendor stems from having a good product, knowing the product, and representing it correctly.

Richard
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Atchman2 on February 17, 2011, 10:25:39 PM
I think this thread has just about spent itself. :) 
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: southpaw on February 18, 2011, 12:37:52 AM
Great! I have the Rws 34 coming Monday. $139.99 refurb. Now I won't sleep until it gets here.
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Atchman2 on February 18, 2011, 10:10:26 PM
Good luck with your gun :)  Personally, I've never had luck with refurb guns so I don't buy them anymore. 
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: GatorGunner on February 20, 2011, 07:34:00 AM
Next time I sell the junk to Gator for twice what it is worth... And Gator, you've been so far in the muck over the Chinese... do I have to show you the dirt on your shoes? You sound like the kid with the poopie diaper who decided to deny it.

"Poopie diaper"...is that the best insult you can muster?  I haven't heard that since first grade.

I noticed the date on my last post in this thread was December 8, 2010.  Your post was made on Feb. 16, 2011.  Did it take you over two months to come up with "Poopie diaper?"  ;D

C'mon man, you can do better than that.   :D 
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: oldpink on February 20, 2011, 09:00:02 AM
Richard and Gator, if you fellows have a quarrel, why don't you take it to e-mail or PM, either to carry on or settle it?
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: AirScopes on February 20, 2011, 10:44:36 AM
oldpink, I don't know how of why this thread keeps coming back! I've been trying to leave it alone. I was ticked at the time and apparently it hit a nerve with some members. I was just poking at Gator lightly... and if it were a real quarrel (at least from my side) it would be taken to PMs. He doesn't like Chinese guns and to each their own, but I guess I was poking (in fun) at his denial. I sort-a like the like: "You've been so far in the muck over the Chinese... do I have to show you the dirt on your shoes?"

In any case, I've moved on...

I already bought an HW97k AND another RWS 54 (which when they don't come abused are pretty nice!). The vendor made good on the transaction, and order has been restored to the world

And hopefully people see that and let this thread float off into the sunset.

Richard
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: ezman604 on February 20, 2011, 11:01:47 AM
Airguns keeps us young at heart...but come on fellows....
Locked thread.
Dave
 8)
Title: Re: Final nail in the coffin of German guns -- for me
Post by: Atchman2 on February 20, 2011, 09:07:25 PM
Thanks :)