GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: HCAirgunner on December 19, 2011, 08:52:44 PM
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I have a chance to get an RWS Diana Model 27 rifle for $50.00. The guy says it's OLD, but still shoots. He says it might be as old as the 1920's.
The rifle is missing the rear sights (there is a place that looks like it is designed to hold the sights, but it's empty. It sits right where the barrel breaks.)
The stock is pretty beat up, but if it's an antique, I'm not really that concerned about the stock. That's what sandpaper and stain were invented for.
My question is, can you still get parts for this gun? If the gun still basically shoots, and just needs a rear sight, and maybe a tune, what price range are we looking at for the mods? (i.e., how much more will I need to spend on this gun?)
Also, if it still has the original spring, should I replace it? It seems like a spring that could potentially be 80-90 years old would be weak / ready for replacement.
If I replaced the spring, are there modern springs that would fit it that would increase its fps? Or should I attempt to buy a spring with the same specs?
Does Umarex still stock and sell parts for these guns? If not, who, if anyone, does?
Or is it just a wild goose chase?
PLEASE HELP!!! THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!!!
Chris
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There's a supplier in the UK (Chambers) that still carries lots of parts for old guns- that's where I would check first. Here's a blog I came across that you might get some information from about the Diana 27 in specific:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/12/diana-27-part-1/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/12/diana-27-part-1/)
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I reckon I'd buy first and ask questions later.
Richard
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I reckon I'd buy first and ask questions later.
Richard
LOL- that's what I'm thinking. :D
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You should buy this immediately. You can sell it to me for $60 and shipping if it doesn't work out.
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Give us a description. There are both pre-WWII and post-war 27's. Some of the second run look like they are older but they are from the 1950's. Both are good, collectible (and serviceable) guns. Even the older can be made usable with other springs, homemade leather seals and you can always modify front and rear sights to fit.
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Ok, from other forums, I have learned the following:
Mine is a mid-1930's Nazi-era gun.
It is marked "D.R.P.a." which I believe means "Deutsches Reichspatent" ("D.R.P.") and the "a" means "angemeldet", thus making it the equivalent of "Patent Pending." That means that this is one of the first DRP's that was made.
Here are the pictures of it:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2N5D5PkYIag/TvEQ3-dJmoI/AAAAAAAAAD0/XpHGmovUjBo/s1600/Diana-27-001.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-y6YvpQKxhk0/TvERU0hTC1I/AAAAAAAAAEM/rKIDx8QduVw/s1600/Diana-27-003.jpg)
The rear sight is missing, but there is a metal "shoe" where a replacement could be dropped in. If I can find one.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xgT43pIYjDc/TvERHaOTDwI/AAAAAAAAAEA/EE67v1GkOTY/s1600/Diana-27-002.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-h0TEU0UeMQ0/TvERqEXM1aI/AAAAAAAAAEY/kwdWvsxjL1A/s400/Diana-27-004.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BwrY4zAY87U/TvER2Z4XfFI/AAAAAAAAAEk/xBUwGnHiB7E/s400/Diana-27-005.jpg)
I have also been advised (both in other forums, and by a friend who collects Dianas) that modding it would decrease its value. My friend told me to just polish the stock with some Pledge, use a little oil and a 0000 steel wool to gently rub off the rust, and find a rear sight for it. Then he said, "Chrono it, and if it shoots anywhere above mid-500's, LEAVE IT ALONE." Ha ha. So that's what I am goin' to do :)
If it looks like it's shooting weak, I might find another factory spring for it.
I sure am glad that I asked around before doing anything to it :P
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I would buy it and leave it alone, but then I have a tendency to collect old things, lol.
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That was an awesome buy. Check out Chambers in the UK for parts, if you don't find a rear sight locally. Very nice acquisition!
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I would at the very least fix it up to get it in good working order. If it's not. What's the fun in owning a gun that you can't shoot?
Richard
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If it is weak, add a few drops of pure silicone oil in through the transfer port and stand it butt down for a couple of days. The leather seal is probably dried and it will take a bit to rejuvenate it. This won't restore it but should bring the power up. Very common with leather sealed guns. Your rear sight is missing the sliding leaf. I don't know if they are like Mauser sights where you lift them slightly and push the front down against a spring to remove it, but, if so, a similar leaf might work. At any rate, it being dovetailed, you can always put in another rear sight so long as you don't spring the dovetail with one that's too wide. Might have to file the sight base a bit but it should be doable and ought not to affect the value. Just be sure to put the original base somewhere safe. That's a nice gun, too. It should be shot.
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I agree, if it shoots weak, I will get a new spring for it, but it will be an RWS factory spring, for the model 27. I won't be putting any special springs, kits, or anything like that into it.
I want to be able to shoot it, but I also want it to retain its value as a historic antique.
I won't be re-blueing it, nor will I be sanding / re-staining the stock as I originally considered doing. But I will clean the gun, and get it as shiny as I can :)
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Redfeather, I will try that. I am willing to try anything that isn't too invasive or drastic. I believe that even antiques should be used for their intended purpose; I have a 1927 Underwood typewriter that I use occasionally to write special letters (usually love letters to my wife, or sometimes I write out special "meal blessings" for Thanksgiving and Christmas.)
The only thing about being an antique is that the object requires more maintenance and a gentler touch.
Originally, I thought about modding the gun only because I was unaware that the gun was so collectible; my uncle has a real Kentucky long rifle. That's always been my idea of a rare or collectible gun. I didn't know (before asking around) that a gun from as recently as the 1930's would be considered collectible. But now that I know, I have changed my approach from drastic modding to subtle restoration.
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Congrats on that very nice find. Its good to know that 27 will be owned by somebody who knows what he has and plans to keep it nice and shoot it. Keep working on it a little at a time and before you know it, you'll have a real prize you'll be proud to own. Let us know how things work out with it.
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What I want to know is: If all of these old guns from the 60's and before are so collectible, why do I keep seeing them for only $150-$200 in mint condition. and all the new guns, with synthetic stocks and plastic triggers start at $250 for a "good" one?
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What I want to know is: If all of these old guns from the 60's and before are so collectible, why do I keep seeing them for only $150-$200 in mint condition. and all the new guns, with synthetic stocks and plastic triggers start at $250 for a "good" one?
Imo, because there aren't that many people who really appreciate the old guns and their workmanship. My experience is that they are much more pleasurable to shoot. I'd rather have 1 old fine air rifle than 20 new ones.
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IMO, all airguns have their pro's and con's and no matter how old or new and airgun is it's only worth what someone will give you for it! and their only Worth so much no matter rare or new it is! I used to collect airguns like allot of us do here but IMO and I have been told this by many in the airgun world that airguns are a bad investment and I have found this out to be very true! Unless you plan to keep them! Then is become's beauty in the eye of the beholder and what it's worth to you? :P
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That's very true Mark. I would probably pay more for an older gun that didn't necessarily have a great value than most people would, but it's because I personally value them. It's not just guns with me- I collect other old things too, lol.
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Ask on the Vintage forum what spring might work best should you feel you need to change it. I doubt Diana still stocks one for that gun, LOL! Otto, who put the springs away, died in '64, so to speak. But they will know. Do try the silicone oil. Works small wonders and, Lord knows, it probably hasn't seen any in donkey's years. Don't expect more than maybe R7 power from it, at best. These were pre-magnum and quite a bit pre-magnum at that. Still, they can get the job done. Just got to get a bit closer. Keep us posted!
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Well, I got a rear sight for it, but it doesn't fit all the way, it's going to need a bit of light filing to get the piece to fit properly.
So, I can't shoot for targets / grouping yet.
But, I did chrono it at my friend's house the other day, and it averaged 620 fps with 8.2 grain Meisterkugeln pellets! That's great for an antique springer, with a 76-year-old spring!
I put ONE (and only one! And I will never shoot them through it again! ha ha!) Crosman SSP 4.0 grain pellet through it, just to see... it clocked at 905 fps!
As I said, I only did one, as a test :) No more SSPs, I promise :) LOL :)
Now to give it a proper cleaning! :)
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That sounds like it is shooting to specs. Those old leather sealed guns were never power houses. Consider that the FWB124 at over 800fps was once considered big medicine. And no more of the ultralites! You break a part and good luck with that!
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I won't ;)
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HCA
The "problem" is, sometimes one is all it takes...
Take care of your treasure.
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I think Vortek makes a custom synthetic piston seal replacement with the adaptor for those guns I think if your interested you might check Tom's site. ::) :P
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Thats an awesome find! Especially since it still shoots. The rws chamber oil will work on an old leather seald gun. Hold half way and put a couple drops in the chamber then slide the gun almost full cock aboit 10 times to spread the chamber lube. Then let it sit about a day and do it again. The will get the leather freshened up.
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if your interested you might check Tom's site. ::) :P
Who is Tom? (I am still relatively new here, only been posting for about a month and a half, don't know all the old-timers yet, lol :) )
And what's the URL for his website?
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He's the owner of Vortek, Tom Gore. :P
http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/ (http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/)
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Well, I took it to the range, despite the fact that I haven't yet filed the rear sight, just to get a general idea of its condition. I was shooting at a 25 yard [75 feet] target, and I figured that I'd be lucky to hit paper (much less the target rings!) at that distance.
But I wanted to see if it was generating enough power to even hurl the pellet that far.
BOY, WAS I SURPRISED!
Not only could I still use the sight well enough to hit the target rings, I was getting 1 to 1.5 inch groups!!
With the sight only partially functional, I was shooting high and to the right, no matter what I did to compensate for it, but I still managed to stay in the 4th and 5th rings, and once, I was able to compensate enough to score a bullseye!
I can't wait until I can get a mill file, and I am able to file the sight down enough to fit properly!!
I am so happy with this little gun, I can barely contain myself ;D
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That is SO cool! I love the old guns too. :) I don't have any as old as your 27, but my 70's Winchester 435 (Diana 35) is a dream to shoot.
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Old as your 27 is, I seriously doubt any of the conversion kits will work. That's a pre-WWII 27 from the looks of it. You don't order piston seals for those, you make them out of leather. (Plenty of good how-to info on the web for when you need to do that.) Yes, those guns can shoot with the best of them, just not as hard. And the sights were made when they put real good iron sights on guns, not fiber-optic, trendy after thoughts. I'll bet the boy who shot it chewed tobacco, too. Well, not to get carried away with it, but you get the idea.
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I don't intend to replace anything on that gun, unless it stops working for some reason. If it *DOES* stop working, I have been told that the leather seals can be replaced with synthetic ones, but a spring to fit it might have to be custom cut to factory specs from another similar spring. But hopefully, neither of those steps will ever be necessary. I, for one, am counting on the matchless quality of old-school German engineering! :)
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Hey, all - I'm a noob to this forum, having run across it while looking for info on a Diana 27 I acquired a couple of years ago. Yep, a nice Diana 27, pre-war and in very good condition. Didn't know what I was getting for $25 - blind hawg found a nice acorn!
I posted this on the introduction forum, but because this thread is what led me to this forum I wanted to add a post about my good fortune.
Anyway, I live in Baton Rouge, LA, having grown up in the country in north Louisiana before going in the Air Force in 1973 at age 22. I'm a gun collector - have an 03 collector's license and a house full of firearms, including air/CO2 rifles and pistols. Got my first air rifle, a Benjamin 317, for Christmas when I was 11 or 12, and shot enough birds with it to fill the back of my truck level full. Still got the little pumper, and a few years ago had the guts replaced by a great guy in Arizona. It still shoots great.
Anyway, about the Diana 27 - a bud of mine's FIL had passed away some years ago, and he asked me to help him find buyers for his FIL's guns, some of them bring-backs from Japan after WWII, and some of them hunting rifles and shotguns. There was also this little Diana in the batch - I didn't know it from Jack, but I figured it would be fun to clean up and add to my stable. So I told him I'd give him $25 for it, figuring that it was just a moldy oldie that may or may not shoot.
Well, I took the stock off, cleaned the metal with Kano and some 0000 steel wool, then wiped some 44/40 blue on it. I put a coat of Tru-Oil on the stock, then put it all back together. Looks nice, with just enough small nicks in the wood to give it character. Shoots beautifully, too, although I had to make an extension post for the front sight and braze it on - gun was shooting WAY high, but now it's dead on. It can't compete with stuff like my Walther Talon or Benjamin Trail NP, but I don't expect it to. It's wonderful for rainy day plinking into a target trap down at the end of the hall (ain't got no ball and chain to shriek at me about such stuff! :) ).
So to get around to how I wound up here... I was googling for info on the Diana and, among articles and such, found the link to this thread. The minute I started reading it, I felt like the gentleman who who started the thread could have been talking about my very rifle. My 27 is identical to his, except that it came completely intact, sights and all. Mine also has the D.R.P.a. roll stamp on the left of the receiver, or I guess the "pump housing" would be the more correct term.
Here are some pics - first, the rifle en toto, then the D.R.P.a. stamp, and finally the front sight extension I made.
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/dasob/diana1_zps73b57764.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/dasob/diana2_zps112a03cc.jpg)
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/dasob/diana3_zps23264b65.jpg)
So after reading this thread, I'm thrilled that I lucked up on such a little prize. And like I said, it shoots good, too - real handy for keeping the feral critters out of the yard. It's not powerful enough to injure 'em, just to sting 'em and make 'em think twice about getting into the garbage can again.
Nice to find y'all and make your acquaintance - hope to be posting more from time to time!
Best Regards -
Sam in BR
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Sam,
Sounds like a nice find.
Regarding the rifle shooting high. It is usually a sign of a bent barrel. If the rifle is cocked and shot without closing the barrel it will slam upward and close violently. This results in an upwardly bent barrel and often breaks the stock. Sometimes the bend is difficult to see with the naked eye but if you hold the barrel against a flat surface like a glass table you may be able to tell.
It's not difficult to bend the barrel back down if you are careful and do a little searching on the subject.
I too own one of these D.R.P. stamped 27's though mine lacks the "a". I enjoy shooting it every once in a while and I wish I new its individual history. It must have been shot by many interesting folks along the way.
Mark N
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John Groenwald at JG Airguns often has parts for older guns. You might try corresponding with him if there are parts you need. Pricey, but for what you paid for that gun, you can afford it.
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It's called the compression tube, although this type of gun is nothing more than a gloried pump when you boil it down. Get yourself some pure silicone oil and add a few drops down into the tube through the hole where the air comes out, AKA transfer port, and let it sit butt down for a day or two to rejuvenate the old leather piston seal. A couple of drops every few tins will keep her spitting. Aside from that, I would say just shoot and enjoy it. If you break a main spring, I'm sure someone can tell which modern spring will work. Also add some of that oil on the barrel seal. Yours has got to be leather and these compress flat and leak after many years. You can make a new seal from leather (some use boot laces) or your might find a decent o-ring which fits.
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Oh Wow, Hi there, Sam! Glad to make your acquaintance!
A little bit of news in this regard, the gun range where I shoot recently hired an EXCELLENT gunsmith, named Benny, who is originally from South Africa. He not only works on firearms, but airguns as well. It seems he was once a competition airgun shooter in Europe.
I brought the Diana 27 to him, just to see if he could take it apart, clean it, and lube it (if necessary.) He said the barrel looked bent, saying the same thing that MarkinJayhawkLand did about slamming the barrel, and offered to straighten it as well. I told him to go for it. He said he couldn't count the number of Diana barrels that he's straightened over the years.
If you'd like to see the posts (I think there are 3) that I have made on my blog about the Diana 27, you can click here: http://thescientificairgunner.blogspot.com/search/label/DRPa