Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
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Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
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Topic: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade (Read 6108 times))
ACZan
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Posts: 229
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Real Name: Chris
Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
on:
December 08, 2015, 01:05:23 PM »
Hello Air Gun Enthusiasts,
I am in need of your help to convert my Crosman Vantage NP .22 to different and better open sights.
Surprisingly, this is a good break barrel rifle in terms of its power. But, I would like to improve its performance for close range pest control (10 to 50 feet). Firstly, I am planning to do a trigger mod using a CDT GRT-III trigger (Based on other topics on this forum, it appears this will be the type of trigger to upgrade this model rifle.). The fiber optic sights just aren't cutting it for me, especially with my intermittent eye problems. After doing quite a bit of research and being informed by manufacturers that on-line merchants are falsely claiming scopes and red dot sights are air gun rated, I came upon diopter/peep sights. Should all peep sights be able to be used on spring/gas piston air rifles. I believe this type of sight might be best to improve open sight accuracy. I did notice there are diopter rear sights with a 1.5 magnification. This might be helpful for my intermittently misbehaving eyes. However, I will shoot with the other eye if necessary. Problem is that the eye issue switches back and forth between the eyes. Anyway, I would like to install a peep sight to use instead of the ones with which the rifle was manufactured. The biggest problem is changing the front sight. I would like to use either a crosshair or a crosshair with a open circle type front sight along with the peep rear sight. The Vantage NP has a 11mm dovetail on the receiver. But, the muzzle looks like it has a crown molded to the end, see embedded image (sorry it is so big). Off hand, I don't know what the diameter of the muzzle is.
Does anyone out there have any suggestions on making this conversion and/or a good diopter/peep sight for this upgrade? I am even willing to send the rifle off to an air gun gunsmith to have the front sight changed. But, I am mechanically inclined with a background in engineering and could possibly do the work myself if it doesn't require specialized equipment.
Thanks for any help you can provide,
ACZan
«
Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 01:24:25 PM by ACZan
»
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
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BreakBarrelBen
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Marksman
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Real Name: Ben
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #1 on:
December 08, 2015, 01:50:25 PM »
You can add a peep to the dovetail on the receiver on the gun but for the front sight I am not to sure on what you want to do, some things I have been pondering in my head I will share because I own the same gun and like open sights. The front post sight can be tapped off with a hammer and a block of wood, it will leave a "squared" off section on the top of the barrel where the sight use to be.
1: Adjust the POI to be above the front post so you can always see the target (this is what I have done so far)
2: Get a rear peep sight and modify the front sight to be smaller or add your own.
3: Send the gun off and have a 3/8 dovetail welded to the front to use all the globe sights currently being made
I have been thinking about the front sight and I don't mind fiber optics but they need to be extremely fine as to not block the target. I was thinking about using some fiber optic wire you can buy on Amazon that people use to make sights for their bows and I was thinking about shaving down the front sight and epoxying a finer fiber optic to it and putting a hood or shield around it to protect it.
Or you may be able to get this to work
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Culleoka TN
Benjamin Disco .22 scoped
Benjamin Trail NP2 .22
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ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
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Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #2 on:
December 08, 2015, 07:44:25 PM »
Hi BreakBarrelBen,
Thanks for your ideas.
A little more background on my decision. I was considering low magnification scopes for close range shooting, but none of the scopes I liked are not rated for air guns. The same was with red dot sights, too. All the manufacturers confirmed they can't be used for spring/gas piston guns.
We are both on the same thought process as that is roughly what I have been thinking about. I had some similar thoughts on the front sight modifications. The rear sight isn't a big deal as many of the peep sights are designed to fit 11mm dovetail. Think I saw one with some sort of stop pin in the mount. The most difficult thing with the rear is to decide what would be the best diopter/peep sight to get. It will have to be one that would work well for hunting. I am open to any recommendations.
I wasn't sure how the front sight was installed on the Vantage, suspected it was most likely a press fit assembly as you implied with your removal method. Are there any good resources to have someone do something with end of the muzzle. Wonder if there is a business out there that specifically works on or installs competition (peep) sights.
Have to agree on not being fond of the front sight blocking the view of target. I would prefer the front sight to be a fine traditional crosshairs, but prefer a crosshairs with a circle in the center. Attached are a few images of what I am seeking for a style of crosshairs.
I do like that clamp on one you suggested. Looks a bit high, but that one I don't think will work well with a peep sight. If I have a target at closer range I have to aim high and can't see below the sight. Seeing below the POI will be necessary for my application. I did find some front sights on Midway USA's website. The band is similar to the plastic molded piece on the muzzle. Can't see what it looks like on the other side. There are some screw on ramps, too. Included are some images of ramps for consideration.
After making a bunch of shots during my hunting activities, I'm just not liking the fiber optic type sights. I feel like they are just blocking my view.
I have to mull it a bit over more like you did. I'll be interested to see what anyone else says.
Thanks.
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
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BreakBarrelBen
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Marksman
Posts: 327
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Real Name: Ben
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #3 on:
December 09, 2015, 10:25:08 AM »
I think I found something for you that will work perfectly.
Read this article, the owner of this gun used a ar2078 front sight
Article:
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2014/12/benjamin-nitro-piston-pistol.html
Front sight he used:
http://www.@#$%^.com/AR2078-Front-Sight-Kit-p/arfsk.htm
EDIT: It won't let me link the @=S+S%^$# air website so I included the link from google
Just search industry brand ar2078 front sight and it will pop up.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ar2078+front+sight
Just measure your barrel and check to see if it is the same OD as this one, which I imagine it should. This is something I am going to have to try out for myself, make my NP a tack driver.
«
Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 11:22:45 AM by BreakBarrelBen
»
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Culleoka TN
Benjamin Disco .22 scoped
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Ol'DeadEye
Expert
Posts: 1446
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Real Name: Tom
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #4 on:
December 09, 2015, 11:21:31 AM »
Some interesting thoughts about open sights "hold".
http://www.sixoclockhold.com/
Personally, I don't own a springer with open sights.
My only springer is a Trail-NP.
But I did replace the rear sight on my Disco with a Williams WGRS-54.
Out of the box it was the perfect height to match up with my factory front sight.
I didn't need to calculate the proper match.
Works great as is, for my conditions.
I was taught to use a 6 o'clock hold with rifles when I was 12 years old (58 yrs ago) and will not change.
As far as a stop pin for a rear sight, I don't believe you'll need one if you keep the sight light weight.
It's my opinion that the heavier the weight, the more inertia causes the movement.
The WGRS-54 is aluminum, without adjustment knobs and other unnecessary gimmicks.
Hunting sights should be set once and forgotten, IMO.
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French Gulch, CA, USA
ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
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Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #5 on:
December 09, 2015, 09:14:15 PM »
BreakBarrelBen,
I stumbled on to that one, too. Spent a little time considering it. Not sure it will give me what I am looking for.
I think engaging Champion's Choice and an (air)gunsmith will be the way to go. There are some front sights with the same type of crosshairs as my preferred example in my attached image.
The thing that needs to be done and would be the most work is get a 3/8 inch dovetail on the end of the barrel to allow the installation of many diopter/peep front sights. Accurately cutting a dovetail groove in the barrel is going to have to be done by a gunsmith. I wouldn't be able to pull that off without screwing it up. Not sure if there is a enough metal in the barrel to cut a dovetail grove into it. Do you remember if there was enough metal? Also, don't know what the end of the barrel looks like with the muzzle cover off of it. Sounds like you said it was rough and unfinished. Crowning services might need to be an option. So, if there is enough metal in the barrel to cut a groove, only the machining will be needed and either a muzzle cover or crowning would be used to deal with the end of the barrel.
My goal is to have low profile front and rear sights, wanting to keep the sights close to the barrel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Ol'DeadEye,
I was originally using the 6 o'clock hold with fiber optic sights for the same reasons. But, I will have to change that if I go to a diopter/peep sight. The product you referenced is a testament to basic theory as to why peep sights can lead to better accuracy.
I might end up doing the same thing with my Discovery. I think that the stock front sight on the Disco would be good for the rear sight you installed. For me, I might remove the florescent rod.
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
Hatsan BT65SB Elite QE .22 Cal
Hatsan Mod 135 .22 Cal
BreakBarrelBen
NOW WITH PCP
Marksman
Posts: 327
yes
Real Name: Ben
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #6 on:
December 10, 2015, 10:26:29 AM »
I don't think there is enough material to machine a 3/8th dovetail into the front of the barrel. Likely it will have to be welded on the end of the barrel but should be fine, the end of the barrel is flat to line up the factory sight... like this.
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Culleoka TN
Benjamin Disco .22 scoped
Benjamin Trail NP2 .22
Crossman Vantage NP .22
Gamo Silent Cat .177
Remington Express .177 & .22
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ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
yes
Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #7 on:
December 10, 2015, 05:54:13 PM »
BreakBarrelBen,
Thanks for the photo. Do you happen to have one of the end of the barrel? That bevel stinks. I vaguely remembered you said there was a flat spot on top. When I remembered that, I suspected it was exactly as it is in the photo.
Is there any indication why there is a bevel machined into the barrel like that?
Now it looks like I'll have to find a muzzle cover that has or can have a 3/8 dovetail grooves machined into the muzzle cover. Forgot to mention I was wanting the grooves cut longitudinally on the end of the barrel as opposed to being cut across the barrel.
«
Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 05:56:22 PM by ACZan
»
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
Hatsan BT65SB Elite QE .22 Cal
Hatsan Mod 135 .22 Cal
BreakBarrelBen
NOW WITH PCP
Marksman
Posts: 327
yes
Real Name: Ben
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #8 on:
December 10, 2015, 06:32:47 PM »
They beveled it to make sure the front sight was easy to line up.
Here is a thought, why not just have the front sight itself machined down to accept a 3/8 dovetail, it should be easy since it is plastic.
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Culleoka TN
Benjamin Disco .22 scoped
Benjamin Trail NP2 .22
Crossman Vantage NP .22
Gamo Silent Cat .177
Remington Express .177 & .22
Black Ops Sniper .177
Daisy 880 (pigeon killer)
ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
yes
Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #9 on:
December 10, 2015, 08:09:53 PM »
You know what, I was just thinking that and wondering if the material is sturdy enough for that.
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
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BowerR64
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Real Name: Ron
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #10 on:
December 11, 2015, 06:22:31 AM »
My eyes arnt so good either but its not the sights that bother me its the distance. Way to blurry at any distance with open sights. I dont mind the glowing dots but they sure are being used on everything now it seems.
What if you just remove the little yellow glow thing on the front and file it to a point? Then you can get a rear peep sight and mount it to the scope mounts in the back. I think alot of ARs come with both peep and regular but they are picatinny style.
Some of the glow sights are better then others, some glow really nice and some dont do much at all.
I madea barrel shroud for my crosman storm using 1/2" pvc and 3/4" pvc it fits VERY tight you may be able to use that and then do something that wont ruin the stock front sight incase you wanted to go back.
I sliced the 1/2" length wise wich allowed it to close in more on the barrel, then using the 3/4" i sliced it as well and had to hammer it over the 1/2" which squished down the 1/2" to the barrel making it a very nice tight friction fit.
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Kansas city, Mo.
ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
yes
Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #11 on:
December 11, 2015, 11:01:49 PM »
Hi BowerR64,
My eye issue is intermittent due to a toxin in my body. So, my eye problems switch between eyes and vary in nature. It is very aggravating. There are Diopter sights that have focus adjustment if I am correct. The way I'll be shooting is what is driving my modification. If you look at the photo of the factory front sight, it blocks quite a bit of the target view, especially at further distances. Comparing it to the Benjamin Discovery front sight, there is much less material. So, the front sight absolutely needs to go. If I am going to change it out, might as well install a sight that I can see around the POI.
I don't want the modification to be half-done and look low quality. The rear diopter/peep sight won't be a problem. The work will be on getting rid of the front sight to something that will hold the type of crosshair I am seeking.
You are right about the quality of fiber optic front sights. Some are very poor and others very nice.
I am willing to have a gunsmith look at it and make some suggestions as I don't mind putting some money into it. But, I still need to talk to a knowledgeable seller of diopter/peep sights or the manufacturer of them to determine which one meets my requirements and preferences. I have a pretty good idea of the features I need, just need it match it up with a specific sight.
I was very disappointed to see that Crosman had beveled that much metal off of the barrel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
BreakBarrelBen,
Is that barrel completely solid to the bore? It certainly looks like it. If it is, there might be some other options. But, that depends heavily on how much metal Crosman removed.
«
Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 10:44:50 PM by ACZan
»
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happymecanic
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Real Name: Francois
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #12 on:
December 12, 2015, 12:53:14 AM »
Hello ACZan, here's a pic of the front of the barrel. And yes, the barrel is solid from the outside to the bore. Hope it helps, and good luck with your search!
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Canada
ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
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Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #13 on:
December 13, 2015, 10:37:30 PM »
Hey HappyMecanic,
Thanks a lot for the photo. I haven't disassembled anything with the rifle yet and your guys' photos help tremendously. This rifle is my only current working pest control tool, until I get one of my other rifles working. Today, I used Crosman Domed Premier pellets for the first time. This Vantage NP was sighted in for the POI to be at the top tangent of the center bead at 35 feet. Having been able to get it sighted in for actual ballistics. That is exact where it hit. Before, I was using Ruger Super Points and understand the complaints about their poor performance. Those Ruger Super Points were going every where but where I was aiming. The Domed Premier pellet went right through a big fat squirrel. This is an impressively powerful gas piston rifle with the right pellet. That is why I want to improve on it a bit for a close range shooter.
The photo was very helpful as I have already pointed a guy who is doing some work on my Discovery to this post, so he could give me some recommendations. Looks like there is plenty of material for a shroud or cover to put over it. I was worried the bevel was cut very close to the bore.
Does anyone know what the proper term is for the piece that would go over the end of the barrel that is larger than the diameter of the barrel, and it covers most of the end of the barrel leaving a little more than the bore diameter exposed? Is it a muzzle cover or a muzzle shroud? Or, is it something all together different?
Thanks, Guys!
«
Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 10:52:18 PM by ACZan
»
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
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ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
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Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #14 on:
February 07, 2016, 10:50:48 PM »
Well, I did find a machinist with military and gunsmith experience to help me with a muzzle shroud. Still need to get with Champion's Choice to find the right peep sight for the gun.
Unfortunately, I had to dedicate my time to break-in my Benjamin Discovery .22, so I can send it off for mods and tuning. 500 plus rounds is a lot of work with the hand pump. Once, I get that back and sighted-in, I'll be able to pick up the Vantage project again. I'll be sure to post the work for every one's benefit.
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
Hatsan BT65SB Elite QE .22 Cal
Hatsan Mod 135 .22 Cal
ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
yes
Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #15 on:
March 15, 2016, 01:43:29 PM »
Before I actually start the sight upgrade, I was thinking maybe it might be a good idea to have some tuning done to the Vantage NP. Mike at TKO Airguns did a fantastic job with my Discovery .22 rifle.
Is there anyone who does this work on a Remington/Crosman Vantage NP .22 rifles, break barrels? I am pretty sure the bore is rough and could be lapped. The rifle is fairly new and most likely doesn't need much other work. Have the trigger on hand and ready to install.
Thanks for any recommendations.
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USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
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Hatsan Mod 135 .22 Cal
Mr. Panther
Expert
Posts: 1878
Life is good if you're the hunter and not the bait
Real Name: Cole
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #16 on:
March 15, 2016, 11:11:24 PM »
I made a home brew peep sight for my Benjamin . I used a field sight from a B3 and epoxied a washer of a diameter I thought would work good to the rear blade. Then I radiused it to fit the washer and get a clear sight picture. Now I can take it off and put it on the dovetails, and it has windage and elevation adjustments. ( and is very accurate to).
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Slowly building up again.
ACZan
Plinker
Posts: 229
yes
Real Name: Chris
Re: Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade
«
Reply #17 on:
March 16, 2016, 07:59:41 PM »
Thanks, Nick. That gives me confidence that converting the iron sights to a peep sight will be an improvement in accuracy.
My Father tried to discourage me in using peep sights because his first rifle had peep sights and he didn't like it. I am pretty sure I would naturally acclimate to the proper use of peep sights.
Realized that my question about who does tuning services on Crosman Vantage NP rifles. Think I will hve to start a new topic on that one.
I took HappyMecanic's photo of the end of the barrel and lightened it up so everyone can see more of the details of Crosman's work.
«
Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 08:11:47 PM by ACZan
»
Logged
USA, Ohio, Miami Township
Discovery .22 - TKO LDC, NcStar Vism 1.1-4X 24mm Mil-Dot Evolution Scope
Ataman AP16 Standard .22 Cal
Hatsan BT65SB Elite QE .22 Cal
Hatsan Mod 135 .22 Cal
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Crosman Vantage NP .22 Open Sight Upgrade