Nitro Venom still driving me crazy

[Jeff in Smithville]

The .177 Nitro Venom Dusk that had almost convinced me it just needed TLC and more break-in is back to asking me for a trip back to Crosman. My other rifles of comparison are a well worn Gamo Cat in 17 caliber and an NP Trail AW in 22. Shooting each from the same position off of the same front rest ("Winchester" bean bag) at the same distance at the same board or sheet of 1" Birchwood-Casey stick-ons the Nitro Venom just continues to stand out as erratic. All have GRT III triggers. Although the other two can still manage an occasional flier or two, they both continue to make groups of touching and overlapping holes all withing the confines of the 1" circle and they tend to be inside the half inch circle. The Venom will on occasion put even the first or a random shot right down the little black diamond in the center. But is more likely to produce inexcusable fliers. Let me see if I can move this towards a question. The Venom's "fliers" are mostly displaced vertically, both up and down. And I can't get them near the center diamond, except occasionally as a total surprise that I can't follow up.
Anybody have an experienced guess as to what is causing this piece to shoot so erratically?
Scope is nailed down well. Stock is tight. Pellets are CPHP.

I've been meaning to broach the subject of how necessary it seems to be with springers (break barrels ) to have more than one, just for sanity check. If I had only one and it was shooting like the Venom, I'd go jump off a cliff or just give it up.

[Lambchops]

Since you've mentioned you have only used CPHP's, I recommend trying different types of pellets. It sounds like your Nitro Venom likes domed pellets based on your statement of them going inside the diamond then "flying" away. It's probably a quality control issue from the CPHP's. Try some JSB or H&N. Good luck!

[Brewerja]

If you cant get it to group with better pellys, my vote is your poston seal is toast. Mine looked like to came out of the bottom of a deep fryer when i took apart my xl. My experience with .177 cphp's are that they are much more uniform and consistant then the .22 cal versions. Some other things to check, you are suffering from "vertical stringing" which is indicitave of one or more of the following issues. An inconsistant barrel lockup will cause high/low because the barrel may be pointed a fraction of a degree up or down every shot. This can be caused by a poorly cut alivejam or weak spring behind the jam,... Or itcould be your breech seal has given up the ghost giving you both bad lockup and inconsistant velocitys. The scope issue looks like you have alresdy addressed. The last thing is that piston seal and unfortunately you wont know if you dont get your gun over a chronograph. If you are seekng more then 10fps or so variation from your shots, i would say one or both of your seals are done for. I hope this helps you out man. If there is any play in your barrel "up and down" give it the tissue test. If air is escaping your breech seal, carefully pry it out, put some dentalfloss down in behind the seal and put the seal in backwards. If its still twacked out, you might have to  uild a spring compresor and put in a new piston seal. I did the cylinder cross hatch on my xl, shes a tack driver now!

[Mike 4888blues]

  Great reply from Brewerja above.
I had the venom wood ,.22 out of the box it had weak power and did the same thing I was very disappointing, I sent it back to pyramid air.
I had a benjamin Trail .22  great power but did the same thing shot all over the place, and after chasing down all the little demons  it was better but was never staying consistent for long, I returned  that also to pyramid air.
You know out of the box a cheap beeman rsr, was so accurate  i though I was seeing things.

 I always clean the barrels  and tune the rifles but it has to show me something up front 1st out of the box. There  are plenty of rifles out there that do just that.
 I would remove your grt111 trigger, reinstall the original, and  return it  or sell it and  move on.
 Just a example..
the hastan mod 95 Turkish walnut wood is  149.00 you get actual 800 fps in .22 it looks jaw dropping insanely good, and the quality of the steel from raw material  is like  German rifles,  no need  for a replacement trigger either. the rifle is  one of many of the hottest selling Hastan rifles.. Rick Ustler on air gun web  will be doing a review  on it soon!

 best wishes and  good luck

[bobster]

My .177 nitro venom experience was just like Mike 4888blues's.  I keep saying Crosman quality on many guns is going in the toilet to which everyone replies "they have such great customer service".  Unfortunately the customer service department does not build the gun, all they can do is replace it with the same gun.  I had one usable Crosman gun out of 5 purchases (not counting old purchases back in the day).  That is a ridiculously low number.  What if new car makers made 1 usable car out of every 5?

[Mike 4888blues]

 It is a shame  but it is true. It is obvious there is no improvement on there designs,  there's no reason to have horrible triggers
 no reason to not of improved them, and all the other issues they keep having.
 The Hatsan co has the Quadro trigger, as well as and many unique and improved designs.
A long time coming to  all manufactures. who either copy or never improve or even care  to change.
Rick Ustler has tried and tried to have Crossman do reviews  on there rifles  but they wont have it.
Look at it this way..
If The Crossman Co was my company  you could bet your last dollar that it would go thru a complete over haul ,on everything that was made, and models with problems would be  solved or taken  off the shelves period.
 what we need folks is a general Patton  to come in a redefine the company. It seem like  the owners are sitting back living off there income  doing nothing. to old to change to old  to care.

[Paul68]

Just my two cents since the bases seem well covered. I just put my Storm back together recently, and had it dialed in at 25 yrds to doing a 1/4" ctc and punching out large single ragged holes. After about 500 pellets, it suddenly opened up and began hitting high to the left and throwing fliers. Everything was tight, nothing sounded different, and all the normal stuff was, well, normal. I was using Crosman Premier Hollowpoints which had been working very well and had nearly emptied a 500 count tin, and so tried some JSB exacts, which had been working nearly as well. The JSB's were even worse.

Did a little looking online, and had seen a couple notes how Crosman pellets had fouled others barrels in less than 1,000 shots, so I ran  4 dry patches without any cleaner through my barrel, which showed there was indeed a lot of buildup present. My tight groups instantly returned.

Might be worth checking since your'e using the Crosman pellets. This video link shows how dramatic the difference between a fouled and a clean barrel can be. 

[Mike 4888blues]

Just my two cents since the bases seem well covered. I just put my Storm back together recently, and had it dialed in at 25 yrds to doing a 1/4" ctc and punching out large single ragged holes. After about 500 pellets, it suddenly opened up and began hitting high to the left and throwing fliers. Everything was tight, nothing sounded different, and all the normal stuff was, well, normal. I was using Crosman Premier Hollowpoints which had been working very well and had nearly emptied a 500 count tin, and so tried some JSB exacts, which had been working nearly as well. The JSB's were even worse.

Did a little looking online, and had seen a couple notes how Crosman pellets had fouled others barrels in less than 1,000 shots, so I ran  4 dry patches without any cleaner through my barrel, which showed there was indeed a lot of buildup present. My tight groups instantly returned.

Might be worth checking since your'e using the Crosman pellets. This video link shows how dramatic the difference between a fouled and a clean barrel can be. 

 Hi Paul That was Excellent, That info should be put in the library.

 I recently saw a you tube video on a member washing his pellets, he seem to think it was graphite powder.the ideal after washing is to spray the pellets with a wd 40 lightly.

which I will not do after seeing your video, but the washing may be the answer.
 there were lead fragment and dirty water left over from washing the pellets.

I thought the grey on my fingers  was from the lead transfer of the pellets during the course of shooting, hmmm maybe it is graphite and lead  , I bought a small strainer , because i thought it was a good ideal. have not tried it yet but 
Maybe you could test for the same and see what the results you get and  post  the results

  I would use your video in a separate post as well  & re title it,and maybe gene will use it  in the library
 Thanks for your great input, again  a great job
 best regards Mike

[Paul68]

Aint my video, just one I found when looking for possible reasons for my sudden loss of accuracy. It IS a very good demonstration though, that's for sure.

I'm probably going to try a few more pellets and see if I can find some that give the same accuracy as the CPHP's in my Storm so I can avoid all the graphite Crosman leaves on theirs. The JSB's are ok, but they just arent as consistent or tight as the CPHP's. I've gone through Crow Mags, Red Fire, Crosman Pointed, JSB exacts, Beeman Rounded, Crosman Destroyers and only the CPHP's have been truly effective. They're just too "dirty" is all. Far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't be anything but lead going through a barrel.

Clean that barrel with some dry patches and see what happens.

[Mike 4888blues]

It would be interesting to know  how other rifles  are effected  with the cphp like my RWS  Dianna 34 and RWS 350 and my Stoeger and Crossman optimist
  the test would be to see how long it takes before the rifle barrel starts to shoot off center.
 I am wondering if  crossmans barrels design gets to easily affected because of how  its made.

I like the cphp because they are inexpensive and shoot well so maybe It will work out when i wash them and dry them thoroughly  ( I hope Jeff  see's his post reply's )

[robert w]

i was wondering if you tried cleaning the barrel. i keep hearing "i never clean my barrel" i use a nylon brush dipped in gunzilla followed by however many patches it takes to come out clean and i clean my barrels about every 50-100 shots sometimes less . but remember a clean gun is an accurate gun. some say it wears the barrel out if you clean too much, but if thats the case why doesnt mild steel loose thickness when you use a brush vigerously ? i think if a brush wears your barrel out from too much cleaning what kinda cheep metal did they use? heck soft mild steel will take hard brushing i used to clean up steel sheets at a trailer factory and used a large hand grinder with a hard steel brush never seen any thickness lost . just my 2 cents worth but do try a good cleaning before giving up on it

[Paul68]

Well, I'm going to use up my tin of JSB's and see if it holds groups. If it does, I'll run some patches through and go through a tin of CPHPs and see if it loses accuracy again. If so, that should be pretty clear indication that they are fouling the barrel.

[SquirrelSniper25]

I would say get atleast 3 different types of pellets and try em. My XL was all over the place with predators, JSBs, Beeman FTS, and all the crosman pellets. I ordered some H&N Baracudas and they all go through the same hole at 20 yards, with a few fliers that I know is me because of the horrible trigger. The gun is more accurate than I am with the baracudas, the right pellet will make a huge difference, from 3" groups to .5" groups.

[bobster]

Just as a data point, cleaning did nothing to solve my nitro venom's issues.  Neither did numerous different pellets, remounting scope, retightening everything, differnt hold techniques, etc.  the only thing I didn't due to fix it was tear it apart and replace the seals.

[Jeff in Smithville]

Thanks guys. I don't think it is a pellet issue. Been sharing the same CPHP batch with the Cat. The barrel closing seems very precise--better than the NP Trail in 22, which outshoots it by miles.
I hit the barrel with dry swabs on occasion and have found nothing to be alarmed by.
Latest investigation was yet another change of scope: BSA Essential 3-9 X 40 came off and the "stock issue" Center Point 3-9 X 32 (OK, joke scope, but what the piece comes with) went on and everything that comes loose got tightened. In fact I did an all around scope mount tightening on the other two rifles. Of course that good deed went punished and I had to chase all of them a little. Ah, the wisdom of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Cat and the Trail got back to nice shooting, but the Nitro Venom remained vertically all over the map. Darn thing gave me maybe one ringer through the center diamond, and then it is back to Loony Tunes. Of course, then I am wondering if I have offended the Great Marksman in the Sky and I am doomed to make shotgun patterns one pellet at a time for eternity. So I go get the Big Cat: A couple quick dead on shots, a pause and I notice a horse fly on my back stop. One shot and the the huge fly drops. Life is good and spiritual high fives to the Big Guy.
The Venom is going back to Bloomfield. 

[Nate the airgunner]

The only thing I think is the problem is the barrel lock up, some brass washers put in place of the nylon one crosman puts in will hopefully fix it, and its very cheap to do.

[Mike 4888blues]

Just as a data point, cleaning did nothing to solve my nitro venom's issues.  Neither did numerous different pellets, remounting scope, re tightening everything, different hold techniques, etc.  the only thing I didn't due to fix it was tear it apart and replace the seals.

Yes  and I liked the looks  and  weight of the nitro venom wood, but hey my spider scences  kicked in and I knew i was going to send her back and move on to better waters!

[Mike 4888blues]

Thanks guys. I don't think it is a pellet issue. Been sharing the same CPHP batch with the Cat. The barrel closing seems very precise--better than the NP Trail in 22, which outshoots it by miles.
I hit the barrel with dry swabs on occasion and have found nothing to be alarmed by.
Latest investigation was yet another change of scope: BSA Essential 3-9 X 40 came off and the "stock issue" Center Point 3-9 X 32 (OK, joke scope, but what the piece comes with) went on and everything that comes loose got tightened. In fact I did an all around scope mount tightening on the other two rifles. Of course that good deed went punished and I had to chase all of them a little. Ah, the wisdom of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Cat and the Trail got back to nice shooting, but the Nitro Venom remained vertically all over the map. Darn thing gave me maybe one ringer through the center diamond, and then it is back to Loony Tunes. Of course, then I am wondering if I have offended the Great Marksman in the Sky and I am doomed to make shotgun patterns one pellet at a time for eternity. So I go get the Big Cat: A couple quick dead on shots, a pause and I notice a horse fly on my back stop. One shot and the the huge fly drops. Life is good and spiritual high fives to the Big Guy.
The Venom is going back to Bloomfield. 

Jeff do your self a great favor. send  it back move on and buy the Hastan 95 in Turkish walnut wood .22 if your into .22
 the only thing  with that is maybe you may have to replace the piston seal ,I ordered  one from   air rifle head quarters a j m seal that will require some adjustment on  the piston buton to make it fit properly, its a known fact that most factory piston seals are to small and it causes piston slam.

 the mod 95 is accurate gorgeous inexpensive and built  very well high quality with the latest Quardro trigger
 Gene  from GTA highly recommends that as well, as so many others &  the Hastan website pictures  not so good so unless you read in the Turkish gate everyone loving there mod95 hatsan its the onkly way you know its gorgious &* accurate 20 yds less then 1/2'' groups that's 60 ft 800fps in .22  using 14.3 grn pellets
 best regards Mike
p s  what i did  was i bought a crosman optimist and bought parts from the Benjamin trail and  made the optimist into a nitro   just to have one nitro, cause i like spring rifles better.
 tune a springer properly and man it will be a great rifle.

[z28rod]

 send  it back

[Jeff in Smithville]

Thanks, again. Will be exploring brass washers in the future I bet. But for now it is still under warranty. And a certain woman thinks I have too many "projects" going. Crazy thing is that the earlier NP Trail that couldn't....had problems....came back a sweetheart of a shooter, I suspect,  just from a little hands-on at Crosman, which they should be doing in the first place. Won't even get to remove the GRT III or box it up for at least a week.